New Whites PI

[kris]

I have been told that Whites will soon release a discriminating PI detector it will be an allrounder prospecting,coins, jewellery,beach ext ? anyone heard anything?

regards

kris

[Reno Chris]

I dont think there is really anything more known than what you have said. It seems like it is built to compete with the Garett Infinium. I hope it is more sensetive than that unit.

Thats the problem with most general purpose detectors - too many design compromises for the "general purpose" status lead to less than optimal performance in the gold fields. Prospecting is a very difficult application, and sincerely different from most beach type environments.

We shall see what it is like when it comes out.

Chris

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi,

I'd sure like to see another general purpose PI unit.

I think we can all agree the Minelab units will be hard to beat in the gold prospecting arena. But I find myself wanting to use PI units for other applications also.

Garrett took a good try at making a general purpose unit, but the Infinium suffers mainly in being to noisy. In the middle of nowhere they run dead quiet, but get them anywhere near town and you can't get them to run quietly I had good luck with mine coin and jewelry detecting, but finally just got tired of the inability to handle electrical interference. I also wish they had at least one coil available that is larger than their 14" elliptical.

I've been playing around with the Minelab units for general purpose detecting, but ergonomically they leave a lot to be desired and they are actually too sensitive to tiny stuff. It is like trying to coin detect with a White's Goldmaster. There is such a thing as too much sensitivity! Prospecting needs often conflict with other design goals, and so as Chris has noted if you try and make a general purpose unit you are not likely to end up with the best prospecting unit. But conversely, the best prospecting units see only limited use for other applications.

So while most of us here are prospectors there does exist a much larger market out there for coin, jewelry, and relic detecting. In many cases the general lack of discrimination prohibits the use of high power PI units. But some applications, like relic hunting and beach hunting in particular, would benefit from having more PI options available for those situations where you simply need more depth than a VLF unit can provide.

So unlike many here I am not hoping for a unit that will replace my Minelab as a prospecting detector. I'll keep my Minelab. What I'd like to see is White's or Dave Emery or anyone come out with a really decent general purpose ground balancing PI detector. Or Garrett to come out with an Infinium II that can run quieter in an urban environment. I almost went for a Goldscan, but I have to admit I prefer to own a unit made by one of the mainstream manufacturers. And Dave was making a lot of noise for awhile so I figured I'd best just wait. And now the White's rumors...

Steve Herschbach

[seeker]

Noise, rumors, we've been bombarded with a lot of it lately, some of it sounds good but when you think about the actuality of it, only a major manufacturer can put a new unit in the market stream and back it up with repair sites and accessories. In the meantime one company is getting the job done, while everyone else is on the drawing board, By the time anything is produced by others to even test we will have a unit from the one major manufacturer on the X 70 platform...... Just my humble opinion HH...Geo

Would like to see a good UW Discriminating PI

in my lifetime, so C'mon rumors get it done

[azdave35]

a friend of mine has a garrett infinium..he brought it over one day and i played with it for a while in my front yard right under a main power line and had no problem with noise..it ran smooth as silk

[Bill&DIANA]

any opinions on the detectorpro PI unit?

http://www.detectorpro.com/headhunterpulse.htm

[Reg]

Hi Bill,

The Headhunter pulse is an Eric Foster design. It works well for the beach but will not work so well out on the desert since there is no ground balance and one can't change to a DD coil. I believe the minimum delay is about 15 usec which means it will be more sensitive than the Garrett on small gold, but not by much.

On the plus side, it wil work under power lines with no problems. Actually, all PI's designed by Eric will work well under power lines.

The bottom line is the HH pulse is designed for beach hunting and works best in that environment.

Reg

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi azdave35,

I probably did as much as anyone to popularize the Infinium by my use of the machine. I currently own four of them for use at our "pay-to-mine" operations at Moore Creek.

All I can say is that if your buddy has one that runs quiet around power lines then he had better keep it!

Many people ask about how well the many dive PI units might work in a prospecting scenario. There are scenarios where a non-ground balancing PI may work, but often you have to reduce sensitivity or raise coil height to reduce ground noise.

And when the hot rocks get bad enough, non-ground balancing units just don't do it. We tried a Fisher Impulse and Eric Foster Goldquest at my mine at Moore Creek. There are horrible basalt hot rocks buried in a fairly neutral shale matrix. Both units hit the hot rocks relentlessly. You could get the Goldquest to run quieter by essentially neutering the machine so much as to make it useless. The Impulse just bonged away on the rocks.

Fred M brought an early Goldscan up to the mine and it seemed to do fine but he was frustrated with some issues that have since been fixed. The Infiniums have done well at the mine although with the number of units in play I have ended up being disappointed with the quality of the machine. We experienced a couple control box failures and several coil failures. I used to think the design of the Infinium meant it was a fairly bulletproof unit but that has proven to not be the case.

So far for sheer performance the Minelab units are easily the best units. My main gripe is in the overall ergonomics of the units. We have a lot of thick brush and so having headphone cords and battery cables stringing around is a pain. Some guys rigging up Pocket Rocket batteries attached to the control box and an external speaker attached to the handle have built units that works a lot better in thick brush. The Minelab units are also sensitive to moisture, with coils that are not even fully waterproof, something you generally get in a $200 detector. So in our rainy, wet conditions I could wish for a little more moisture resistance.

I like George's X70 hopes, but I think battery power is an issue. I'd like to have a GPX crammed into a DFX type box with a drop-in battery pack. The DFX has great balance and the LCD/Touchpad design allows for lots of control options while eliminating switches and knobs that can let moisture and dirt into the unit. The DFX battery pack size would be sufficient to run a GPX for as long or longer than the Pocket Rocket. Put a Platypus style coil on it as a standard item and you'd have a really great unit. GPX-5000? Or White's XPI?

Steve Herschbach

[au4greg]

Hello Steve,

I am currently evaluating a new detector from White's along with Jimmy Sierra which is NOT a general purpose detector like the MXT.

Since I am under contractual agreement with White's Electronics, I'm not going to say any more. You can expect an announcement sometime before 4th of July as the enhancements are made to the Prototype.

I will say that it is oriented toward Gold and VERY Sensitive. It is also exceptionally quiet over the ground conditions we have encountered.

Regarding the Garrett Infinium... I agree it is a bit on the noisey side. One has to up the 'Discriminator' level IF the Tracking Speeds don't keep the threshold quiet. Nonetheless, I've used the Garrett Infinium at heavily mineralized Lake Tahoe and there were coins beyond 20" I just cound't get to. Unlike the others, it is WATER Submergeable... and priced competitively.

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi Greg,

Nice to hear from you. I have a funny story to tell you but I'll send you an email about that.

I'm not knocking the Infinium. See http://www.akmining.com/mine/jour141.htm and you'll see I learned the disc trick way before most people were giving the unit a chance. I've found a lot of platinum and gold with the Infinium and think it has been an under rated unit. People who compare it unfavorably with the Minelabs are really missing the point.

The Infinium runs like a dream in the woods, and if Garrett could make it more immune to noise I would use the unit a lot more. I did well with it in Hawaii but ended up switching to the White's Surf PI just because I got tired of the noise. It is not that the Surf PI actually falses less where I hunt but the Infinium dual tone in effect makes twice as much noise. The Surf will false on a rock with a single tone, the Infinium with a dual tone. I would use it more in town also but gave up for the same reason. But at our mine it has served well, with the exception of the hardware failures.

I have a huge piece of advice for White's. Any attempt to market any new PI in direct competition with the Minelab units is a mistake unless a unit can in fact equal or outperform the Minelabs on gold. I don't think Garrett intended it but their Australian distributor made a huge deal out of the Infinium being a direct attempt to outperform the Minelab units. Some people got their hopes up but when they got their hands on the Infinium a huge backlash occurred. The machine was widely trashed for not being as good as the Minelab units. Some of it got pretty nasty. It was unfortunate and unnecessary.

The fact is I've sold a lot of Infiniums over the years but I've never done it by making it out to be better than a Minelab. It does offer good performance at a great price, however, and flat out does a couple things well that you cannot do with a Minelab, like go underwater! It also hip mounts nicely and when you hip mount it and put the 10" x 5" elliptical on the unit it is like swinging a hip mounted Gold Bug 2. All machines have things they do better than others and that is all that should be done with any new unit - talk about what it does well.

So when you coming to Alaska to hunt gold?

Steve Herschbach

[jimmy sierra]

Hi Guys,

I thought I would just add my 2 cents worth and clarify a bit of the “buzz†on White’s new Pulse unit. Nothing has been released, as you know, but as usual rumors abound any time something new is on the horizon.

First off, it was mentioned in some of the threads that it was being designed as a “multi purpose†detector and “therefore†could not be expected to perform as well as a stand-alone , dedicated, prospecting unit.

I fully understand that philosophy and one is correct in making that assumption. For example, the Goldmasters, including the current GMT were all designed to be single purpose, prospecting units. For that reason they were designed to operate at around 50 khz, which sees low conductive metals (gold) and small targets better than lower frequencies would.

On the other hand the MXT was intentionally designed at around 15 khz operating frequency so discrimination could be used and it would perform as a multi purpose unit. It shares the same ground balancing circuit as the GMT, so it can be used to prospect in bad ground, but because of its lower frequency won’t see as small a piece of gold as the GMT.and thus the prospecting aspect has been compromised to a degree.

Now to get to the point.. Whites new pulse unit is NOT being intentionally designed as a multi purpose detector. Our main focus from the onset was to design it for gold prospecting. I have been fortunate from the beginning to be able to work with Whites engineer and Eric Foster in laying out the interface etc. and testing its performance in the field. Gold prospecting has always been my main focus and I had my fingers in all of the goldmasters from the very first one.

What we have found during this process is that the way in which we control the Pulse Delay allows the unit to be adjusted or optimized for detecting both low conductive metals (like gold) or high conductive metals (like silver) and likewise, for small targets and large targets. Thus the unit can be just as comfortably used for beach and relic hunting as it is for gold prospecting, with no loss of performance. The common characteristic necessary for its performance is its ability to ignore ground minerals.

In this aspect, it is not really any different from Minelabs pulse units. They also are credible beach and relic detectors, though they might not be touted or marketed as such.

Needless to say, whites is doing its best to add a new pulse detector to our line. I am first to say that it is about time...... certainly it is better late than never. Everyone who knows me understands that I have been beating the drum for many years.

Just thought I would set the rumor straight in this one regard. More facts will surely emerge as we get further along in the project. I will try to keep the facts separated from rumor.

Thanks for reading this far......Jimmy Sierra

[Uncle Ron]

Hi Jimmy...Thanks for the info...It's smart to grab hold of rumor control at the beginning....I know you probably can't answer this, but will the ground balance be auto or manual? Or, hopefully, both? Also, coils? Could there be a possibility of using aftermarket coils, like the Nuggetfinder and Coiltek? I've always been a big supporter of White's gold machines and look forward to seeing how this turns out...Cheers, Unc

[dutch john]

Jimmy... Gosh, I'm glad you are posting on Rob's forum... and sounding

so chipper. I reckon you are about ready for your annual "Metal Detect in

England with Jimmy Sierra" adventure?

Yes, I'm most certainly aware you have been beating the drum for White's

to develop a PI-type ground balancing machine. You and I talked about this

the last time I saw you. Hopefully White's will have a pulse that can fill a nitch

and be sensitive to a certain/size "midrange-zone" of free-milling gold.

However, it may be hard to "catchup with the leader."

A few years back Bill L. and I played with his pulse. I bought one from a

White's dealer and Bill set it up as best possible. However it just couldn't

handle the hotrocks.

Speaking of Bill, he emailed me yesterday that he has received his copy of

the 2007 Silver & Gold annual. His article on the "Lost Gunsight" will be in it.

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi John,

"However, it may be hard to "catchup with the leader.""

I have to agree with this and I think it is unrealistic to expect a new offering to out-perform a top-of-the-line unit in it's seventh generation. Price also matters as a new White's unit should be judged against units in a similar price range. That is what was always unfair about the Infinium thing was the expectation it was going to outperform units costing three times as much. Every once in awhile something like that happens, but not very often. The practical aspect for many people is in deciding what they can afford and then looking at options in that price range. If I can afford a mid-range car I do not bother checking out Ferraris.

I've also been beating the drum for years with White's as I've always felt they needed to be in this market. Ultimately I am really a detector user, and I truly want all the companies to be competing in all areas of detecting to give better products.

Steve Herschbach

[COLORADO BOB]

Hi Jimmy,

I too, have a question about coils. If you can answer at this point?

Will the unit come out with only one coil, what size, shape, mono/dd ect.??

Will Whites have a line of various coils available, somewhat like Minelabs line of coils.

Will any other Whites coils work on this unit, and as Ron asked, what about after market coils???

Bob T.

[socalgolddigger]

COMPETITION IS ALLWAYS GOOD FOR THE CONSUMER! products get better and prices get lower. imagine that world 3-5 years down the road!!!

[dutch john]

Howdy Steve and everyone...

There are now "gently used" SD and GP Minelab units for sale. A well rounded

"backup" with lots of searchcoil choices. A time tested and proven product. A well

established dealership and knowlegeable dealers who are willing to take customers

to the goldfields.

It is one thing to take a yet unproven detector to a nearby gold field; but it would

be another thing to take it to Australia or even Alaska. So many small glitches can

occur in the first to go off the line.

Also, it takes time to fully learn a detector. As just one example being able to select

the "quietest" noise canceling frequency. Another thought, there has been recent

improvements in VLF-technology. (Don't understimate the X-terra 70... )

Oh, by the way Jimmy Sierra... my mom and Leo Bollings wife were great friends.

Leo even showed his coin to my mom...

[grubstake]

Jim, I sent you an email a couple of days ago, check it. Grubstake

[Allen in MT]

Any chance that White's would look at the idea of taking the control box off the shaft as with the old GoldMasters and make it belt or chest mountable again.

Allen

[seeker]

I was talking to Steve H on the phone last nite and if Whites would put this new PI in the Whites Beach hunter ID box it would be all things to folks.... UW, and give a multitude of mounting possibilites, right now that is the only way I would be interested in one... It seems this is to be Whites version of Erics unit, maybe they will have some accessory coils, which would be a little better then the unit that passed thru Az last year, just another detector to look at, so may units, so little time... HH...Geo

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi George,

I agree on wanting a waterproof unit, but it would be best if there were two models. One problem with the Infinium is a lot of weight and extra expense is added to the machine and so for those who never intend to submerge the unit a lighter, less expensive unit is nice. I've often thought of taking the Infinium and stuffing it in a Classic box and using the 10x5 elliptical coil. Would be a much lighter and better balanced unit. Waterproof is nice but only if you need it. So Im hoping dry land unit now and maybe waterproof version later.

Steve Herschbach

[Digger Bob]

Jimmy may not be able to answer all your questions. Like Greg, I too have been involved in the testing and ongoing development of this machine. When I saw questions being raised on this forum, I forwarded it to Jimmy so he could set the record straight, if he saw a need. He is much too busy to read all the forums, unfortunatly, as he could add so much to all the mis-information that floats around the internet.

I can't say much either. But I think you will all be pleased with the final result. It will fill a niche in the market that is badly needed, but is not designed to replace anything currently out there. Loops, chest mountable, ground balance; all these things are being taken into account with the end user in mind. It's being designed by prospectors with a little help from engineers.

Stay tuned and watch out. Whites has fallen behind in this market but they are not out!

Digger Bob

[seeker]

Sounds good to me will wait on the results...Geo

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi Bob,

To quote you "It will fill a niche in the market that is badly needed, but is not designed to replace anything currently out there".

That is exactly what I want. I do not need to replace anything I already have - for gosh sakes I just replaced my GP-3500 with a GPX-4000! I'm doing fine there.

What I need is something to complement my GPX. Something easy to chest or hip mount would be a big plus. There are days at our mine when it is really pouring down rain and you are working in alders and willows. Minelabs are great units but they are prone to moisture issues. So frankly, when it is really wet I'd as soon leave the GPX in the cabin and use something else. Right now that has been the Infinium. Give me a better alternative to the Infinium and I'll be a happy camper.

Steve Herschbach

Steve's Mining Journal

[~LARGO~]

Hi all,

Don't put a lot of stock in what those supposedly "in the know" are willing or able to tell you.

Some years back, I was frustrated because there wasn't a good multi-function detector available: a machine that could be a good coin machine, a good gold machine, as well as a good relic machine.

I was ready to buy, and had been impressed by my GM3, as well as my XLT detector, and wondered if the good features of those machines might be further refined, and put into a single unit.

I called the engineering division of Whites, at Sweethome Oregon, and questioned the head engineer there about the possibility of have such a machine in the works. I don't recall what his name was, but the name Steve seems to remain as a possibility.

To my question about such a machine in the works, he told me, "No, and HELL NO!". That pretty much sent me away from Whites at that time as a source.

Not too much later, with great fanfare, from who, but Whites of Sweethome, Oregon, comes the MXT detector, a multi-function machine. A vlf machine, but still a long waited for multi-function machine, that has proved to be good in all aspects.

Whites has always been on the cutting edge of detector technology, and they have not been prone to throw out the "detector to end all detectors" every two or three years, so I am somewhat confident that something everyone will like is in the works.

So this has been my experience with those in the know being candid with questions about forthcoming products... being patient, and socking away the $$ for the time the detector of your dreams comes along is the best path.

Whites has, for sometime held some of the patent secrets formerly held by Minelab, but lost for reasons I won't take time to discuss here, so there COULD be some interesting refinements of that technology being used as a platform for their new PI machine. Just speculation on my part, however.

Have a good day!

~LARGO~