An Inconvient Truth

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi FlakMagnet,

I'm really not disagreeing with you at all. The rates of temperature change may well indeed have increased. Which again, is not an unusual thing. Things tend to reach a certain equilibrium, and then when knocked out of balance, change rapidly until a new equilibrium is reached.

Maybe we are adding to the rate of temperature change, although I do not accept that as a given. I do think we are a wasteful nation. In the 70's during the last fuel "crisis" everyone talked about conserving fuel and we even lowered the national speed limit.

But fuel prices and supplies moderated, and how soon everyone forgot.

Sure, let's not be wasteful, and let's do what we can to reduce harmful emissions. I'm all for responsible development. My perhaps doubting that we are not going to be able to do anything to change the fact that the world has been warming since the peak of the last ice age is not an excuse for waste and pollution.

I'm sure it will be suggested by Al and company that cheap fuel is really our problem, not high fuel prices. Better impose a stiff gasoline tax to get us all to drive fuel efficient vehicles.

But really, I do think people should study up on this and read about our historical geology. Try http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils...us_climate.html for some interesting perspective.

Steve Herschbach

[nuggethunting]

Hello Steve,

I enjoyed the link you posted. Brought back a lot of memories of me taking Historical Geology 1 & 2 in college about five years ago. The class was very interesting and touched more on history than just plain old rock geology. However, I probably forgot 75% of what I learned, I still have all the books and browse through them once in a great while.

The subject is way over my head, so I'm just sitting back reading all the information you all post. Wish I knew a solution ...

Rob Allison

[BIGFOOT]

You cant be honest & nice at the same time.......so I've gotten bit a couple of times for being honest...too bad....thats just me being me.I love the earth...I clean up ALL my garbage up then some.The richer you are (as a human being)the more natural resources you consume.I can honestly say that if hypocracy werent an issue at all....the earth would be a cleaner place.

Just for starts...IF...all of us were asked individualy what they do to pollute...I'm bettin that most would not(as previously mentioned)go back or in reverse.

Luxurys&laziness DOES have a high price.Even if you break your back all your life....your STILL consuming resources.......no way around it.

Maybe Minelab could come up with a solar powered detector?hhhhhmmmm....nah....scratch that ideal.But IF our hobby is causing too much OZONE DEPLETION I think the atmosphere would benifit greatly by just allowing us to go back to hydralic mining.

BIGFOOT

[rexb]

Ok, I don't mean to be contrary or disagreeable, but I'm going to introduce a little bit of "counter argument" into the thread here. I've heard from the other side of the global warming issue that much of the water locked up in at least the north pole is submerged under the open north sea. Most of the actual mass of icebergs are also below the ocean. So, what does water do when it freezes in a glass? It expands, so glacial melt means that at least the ice already within the ocean will actually take up less space than it does now. This may offset some of the catastrophe predictions of flooding to some extent. However, the melting of ice in Antarctica and other land masses such as Greenland will dump water into the oceans. The lowered salinity of the ocean could further disrupt warm water currents such as the gulfstream which would contribute to colder temperatures along the eastern U.S. coastal region and the climate of countries such as Great Britain.

[just-john]

OK so how much ice do we need to melt to flood the mid east -LA-Sanfran-

and can i surf in az when its done.Its b.s. we dont make up enought stuff to matter

Some would like you to think we do= we don't=Ice comes and goes like the tide

just takes longer.You could take the population of the world fit it into KS and they have more room than most people in phx.Where just doing what were pre programed to do what humans do it's in our genes couldn't stop if we wanted

but if we did DA that what we were going to do anyway.enjoy the ride you know were not here long ask a redwood

[nuggethunting]

Hello Everyone,

I stayed up very late last night and seen an advertisement for a "Global Warming" program that will be on the TV this coming week or weekend. I was so tired, but seen the ad twice last night. I believe it said this coming Sunday, but I could be wrong. Might be something interesting to watch, but when it comes to Global Warming there are so many sides to it.

Funny, when I graduated High School back in 1990 I wrote a long 10-paged report about Global Warming back then. I sure wish I had that report now, cause I did some serious research for about a half-year before I wrote the report. Not like Global Warming is something new, it's just a cycle of the Earth. Like the old saying" Nature Knows Best!"

Rob Allison

[BIGFOOT]

Man CAN NOT (and has already shown clearly)take care of his own kind and/or SAVE himself.......now we have some "SUPER DUDES" stepping up to the plate saying..."I CAN SAVE THE WORLD!"Yeah Right!YES........dont snort to much Kryptonite now!

Cleaning up our own messes(this includes garbage of various kinds)is a great start........I'd like to see people just start with that.Heres ONE ideal....remember when ya got 8 cents a can for Aluminum recycling?Apply the same incentive for all garbage.....throw some air-scrubbers on those smoke stacks.

How about miniature individual air-scrubbers that fits on the end of a ciggarette?

I'd PREFER a cleaner safer world folks......but I like Ol Mom nature just the way she is!If your dumb enough to continue to CONSTANTLY build your house in Tornado Alley you deserve to get blown away!(duh?)On the west coast we have Earth Quakes....Theres some real choice people out there EXPECTING nothing to happen by building directly ON TOP of the Fault Zone........Let her Rip!Build your house in flood plain?Invest in snorkels!

Personaly(that excludes ones that like to ignore)I'd be scared IF man had the power to reverse the so called Global Warming........he'd screw that up to and try to some kind of blow tax on mom nature.

BIGFOOT

[FlakMagnet]

It is interesting to see the strength of the opinions.

That's good.

I'll repeat what I am suggesting;

put your opinions down somewhere for a moment,

and go look at what the film has to say.

Again, it is not political in the sense that some are attaching to it.

Put the political label down for a second too, it's too loaded a phrase right now,

it's about your life and the lives of everyone you know.

In it, you can see for example, why so many scientists who study this deeply,

are concerned about the amounts of Artic, Greenland and Antartica ice that are melting.

You can pick up your opinion again, completely unchanged, no alterations to it, afterward.

It's easy.

I didn't post to start a pissing match,

who in their right mind would want to introduce that kind of instability into this forum?

I am passing along something I have seen, which flew in the face of most of what I held

as true.

It was stimulating, challenging, unsettling but ultimately hopeful.

It is a tough pill to swallow if it even comes close to the truth.

So what?

It is better than thinking in an outmoded context

and allowing a wake-up call to go unanswered.

fwiw,

respectfully,

[BIGFOOT]

Hi Flak!

I try to keep an open mind.......specialy toward these topics.I suspend my dis-beliefs.Hey!I see no pissing match...its another opertunity to learn something new...nothin wrong with that!No matter whos side your on...when viewing life closed minded its hard going....right?Anyway....you said "It is better than thinking in an outmoded context

and allowing a wake-up call to go unanswered.

fwiw,"....I agree.But whats "fwiw" mean?hhhhhhmmmm

Hoping your season is goin good!

BIGFOOT

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi FlakMagnet,

I do not think this is about opinions. It is about historical geology as proven by the geologic record - facts as recorded by fossil and other evidence. If you do not study up on the whole of the geologic record but accept the films presentation of just recent geologic history then you are not getting the full story.

I'm totally with you. Forget your opinions. Get the facts. Get ALL the facts. Look at all of geologic history, not just the recent snapshot the film presents. The facts are that we are living in relatively cool times and at greenhouse gas levels far below what has been normal at times in the geologic past.

If you think the film is not political then visit http://www.algore-08.com/index.php?option=...=372&Itemid=305 I think it reveals what the movie is really about... and in my opinion it is not about global warming!

Steve Herschbach

[Jeff Bucher]

Thanks for the link Steve. There is allot of information there that helps put Al's motives in perspective. Bad part is, having to look at his picture at the top of the page. Thanks again, Jeff

[BIGFOOT]

Introducing instabilty is pretty much ON track with mother nature.......she's always changing....regardless of how mindfull or mindless man is.After seeing the Al Gore link now I know I was right...politics as usual.......one fat head leading the *#%^^^*&_!S again.

Egyptologist discovered that Mr.Gore was worshipped about 4000 years ago when the pyramids were built.He was a PHINX that STIRd many debates in the desert.

BIGFOOT

[FlakMagnet]

Steve H.

Thanks for the site url.

For me it is not relevant.

I am not interested in Al Gore for anything more

than the fact that he is a fairly clear

narrator in this film.

My point is that this is an effective primer for looking at one of stronger

leanings in the discussion of global warming.

My other point is that I am not sure one should make up their mind

before least looking at what it has to say.

and that's all it's about.

I would hope that I didn't infer that the movie was the only source of my information.

Like you, I have kept current with the historical background that this film uses

as part of it's context.

As a tool for change though, geological study is, unfortunately,

even more difficult than watching Al Gore - well, a tie of sorts anyway.

Of course one view or the other, if they are put up together for choice,

will seem to be opposing. Especially if a political intent is prominent.

But these days, most of our information is slanted (another word for political perhaps?),

and we all have to pull the information that is relevant for us out of that blurry frame.

Bigfoot:

I am sure you know, but fwiw means

'for what it's worth'

fwiw and regards,

[Gold Guru]

Global warming - I don't buy it

Here is why, let use some round numbers for ease of example and say the earth is 100,000 years old and we have been recording temperatures for 500 years, it is impossible to accurately say if it is getting hotter or colder based on the little time the recording has taken place

In this scenario a person is taking 1/200th of time and trying to convince you of something he does not even know because no temperature recordation's occurred for 99,500 years

You can go on to use this argument or that "fact" to support global warming but if scientists are honest (some are) they will admit they really don't know what happened in the past and they are "best guessing"

FACT you were not there, you did not record for 99,500 years - you do not know

I freely admit there are many things in this world I do not know and also that I can be wrong on just about anything, even what I wrote above - just my thoughts on the subject based on personal knowledge and experience - I'm open minded

I've listened to preachers

I've listened to fools

I've watched all the dropouts

Who make their own rules

One person conditioned

To rule and control

The media sells it

And you live the role

[FlakMagnet]

Rod,

A welcome addition to the "mix"

I say the more ideas the better,

as long as the intent is for the benefit of all of us,

we all learn something.

[just-john]

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I've tasted of desire

I hold with those who favour fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

MR Robert Frost

[BIGFOOT]

Flak,

If I knew what fwiw meant.........I wouldnt ask!No matter how "sure" you are.

fwiw ...NOW I know.

BIGFOOT

[FlakMagnet]

BigFOOT,

Yeah, I get it...lol.

best,

[whats4supper]

what is history anyway? someone's opinion and overview of what they think or thought the main issues are or were. History always includes bias, and loads of errors. farther behind us, the more believeable it sounds.

Truth? not far away from historian prose, but even more ambiguous and hard to pinpoint the farther back you go.

Everyday that goes by, people are finding new things about earth dynamics that we never knew before, and will likely not understand. Sure, we can start measurements, but there is few accurate records that takes us back far enough.

Geology may seem to be a methodical dsicipline, yet in the story of rock, folds, fossils, shelfs, faults, and drift, there are all these 'uncomformities' that exist when the rock layer directly above or below another one, may be 1,000,000 years different.

So you have to look at things as they are in a market world:

why does the TV station have a newscast- local or national. it's not to give accurate news. No, it's to draw in viewers that will justify some marketer to pay for advertising spots, or pull in monetary contribution to the station or movie editor. When no money is to be had by bland reports, and load of money to be made by sensationalism, which way will those in charge turn?

[COLORADO BOB]

Hey Flak,

Silence is golden, flip on the ESP switch.

Bob T.

[FlakMagnet]

Colorado B.,

: )

[BIGFOOT]

Colorado Bob,

Sound advice.

BIGFOOT

[FlakMagnet]

bigFOOT,

(sshhhhhhhhh)

regards,

[BIGFOOT]

FLAK,

Eh-Hem!Are you the "Station Master" now?Tryin to tell me somthin bub?.........(go ahead and say it.......no sense hangin out like a couple of ol farts on the front porch!lol).I'm done with any Al Gore replys.....even though he said the cows & dolphins are "trying to tell us something" about the effects of GLOBAL WARMING.

BIGFOOT

[FlakMagnet]

Bigfoot,

Station Master?

No...

I'm just having fun.

I liked the thread alot,

lots of good discussion

and too not much 'going for the kill'...

best,