ARE MINELAB PI'S SUPERIOR?

[Reg]

Hi Grubstake,

Sorry, I missed this post by you. I have been working nights so I have been very tired (still am) when I read the posts and answer them.

Now, I like your sense of humor as well as your reasoning behind missing nuggets. It is easy to go too fast, and in some cases, too slow with a detector. I also agree about finding what works best for you.

As for missing nuggets, my favorite story happened quite a few years back in the old VLF Days. Several of us had run into a place where we found several nuggets. So, we beat the place to death, we thought. Well about the last day we planned on hunting the area, a good friend, a guy by the name of Tony Pancake, was covering the same ground all of us had pounded several times before and just happened to stumble into a very loud signal. Thinking it was trash, he dug it anyway and was rewarded with a nice specimen that had somewhere around 2 oz's of gold.

How did we all miss it? Who knows for sure, but like you said, even a Radio Shack cheapie could have found it.

Now, I would like to add a couple more points. I would like to add is one should never quit trying different things with their detector. Learn that detector as best as you can. Know the warts, the hotspots, and the things that turn it on and make it hum. Don't assume the same setup works the best everywhere.

On a ML PI, changing coils can really make a difference, as can a few adjustments. On a VLF, changing the gain, the autotune, and especially the ground balance can have quite an effect.

I am a very strong advocate of practicing, especially if you don't get to hunt much. Also, as mentioned in a previous post, watching is very valuable. I know, I have picked up a few tricks from watching Rob. He is very gifted and has learned some unique tricks that enhance his ability to find those nuggets. Actually, I have learned from a lot of people just by watching them. In fact, one of my most humiliating experiences coin hunting was watching a newbie teach me what I was doing wrong when operating a brand new detector, many years ago, but that is a different story.

We have a tendency to get into "ruts" and cruise along in those ruts because it works and it is easy to do. It doesn't hurt to get out of the ruts, but one should also have a reasonably decent idea of what might happen when they do. That is where the practice comes in.

Finally, never, never, never, rely and a test of one. What appears to work right at a particular time or place may not be the best overall.

Finally, you are absolutely right, the detector is only a tool. It is best to know where and how that tool works best.

Well, that is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Reg

To me running a detector is like a blind man making love to a woman that he has just got in bed for the first time, you have to feel it, run your hands over it, try different setting, what works well for one person may not work well for you, find you own hot zone. I have seen many times, guys I hunt with, miss nuggets, because they go too fast, too slow or just don't hear them, As Shep has proven, he found a 1/2 oz nugget in an area that has at least 6 different people go over, He just had the right settings and took his time and found that missed nugget. Was it a different coil? No not really I had used the same coil on the area, was it his new 4000, maybe. but the nugget was only inches deep, one that big would have gone off on a radioshack detector. There are many things that can make you miss a nugget, or find one. I don't think it comes down to just the detector, its only a tool. What do you all think? Grubstake

[prospectinginoz]

Hi Rob,

You said " Reg Sniff should know by now, if I egg him on enough about the PI's he will post very informative information about detectors. "

Yep, you know I will take the bait if it looks like a good topic.

Now, you also said

-------------

"However, I have one question .... "If my Minelab PI would find a small nugget at 4 inches deep and a VLF could only hear the same nugget at 2 inches, wouldn't that be 2 times the depth?

Minelab did make the claims that the PI's were getting 2-3 times the depth over conventional VLF detectors. They also stated the GP Extreme was getting 55% better depth on small nuggets and 18% better depth on larger nuggets over the SD series.

I would agree in mineralized ground that the Minelab PI's are getting twice the depth. "

------------

Now Rob, to use your definition, when I tested the SD 2100 using the 1/4 oz nugget, I could only get a depth of about 3" but that particular nugget was found with a VLF at almost 9". So, by your definition, the VLF will go 3 times deeper than the ML PI. Right?????

It gets better, you know I have a couple of John Blennert's "invisible nuggets" I use for testing. You also know that no ML PI can detect these particular nuggets.

However, you also know my little PI will detect them and they were found with a VLF, so in this case by applying your logic, VLF's and low powered PI"s go 100% deeper than ML PI's. Right?????

(gotcha)

Cheers,

Reg

Of course the other thing Reg is that does advertising or a brochure from the manufacturer constitute "evidence" that the GP series will go 55% deeper on small nuggets and 18% deeper on big nuggets than the previous SD series?

Doug

[Wirechief]

G'day Wirechief,

All the Minelab PI auto ground balance detectors have no trouble ground balancing in the gold fields, in my view.

Of couse the later GP's are better. But they all do a great job. The only VLF's i've tried are the ML17000 and the ML18000, In my view, they are not even nearly as good at auto ground balance.

The best guy I know uses a SD2100, great machine.

My score: Minelab PI's 95%

Sundry VLF's 5%

Ok Inhere, so my thought of being happy with the SD2100V2 is justified rather than the using a GPX4000 as long as I have the know how and experience and gold finds to make it worth it. The GPX4000 I know is a very nice instrument but if I could make do with a SD2100V2 that would be fine with me. But if I ever get around to it and build up my Hammerhead PI that would be an interesting project to learn from and then prospect with it. I still think that VLF detectors are very useful for nugget hunting and I will always have a Lobo or Eureka around. Ok Inhere CU later and God Bless my friend.

John Tomlinson,CET

John's Detectors

[grubstake]

They way I look at it REG. is that although a detector is a tool, so is a philips screwdriver, can you use it for a center punch? yes you can if you have to. But its not the right tool for the job, just a subsitute, that will work in a pinch. Same with detectors, pick the right one for the job, use it, get to know it like its part of you. You will find gold. It takes some longer than others, but if you keep at it, you find it. Never give up, and try every setting your machine has to offer. Most of all do your home work, listen to the old timers in your area, most stories are based on fact. Good lead come from listening, you never learn anything if your talking. Grubstake

[AZNuggetBob]

Pi's and VLF's are like a pick and a shovel, each does its own job very well but nether will replace the other. AzNuggetBob

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi,

Had to get in my two cents. I agree with Grubstake. It is like arguing which is better, pliers or a hammer? It just depends on what you wanto to do. Realistically, price also does matter. For some people a used VLF for a few hundred bucks is all they can afford.

If I were headed to digs south of Anchorage more often than not I'd use a Gold Bug 2. Also for finding hardrock gold north of town. If I were headed to Ganes Creek tomorrow I know of no better unit than a White's MXT for that particular set of conditions. And at my own mine at Moore Creek there is no doubt Minelabs rule supreme. I can say with quite a bit of confidence however that the bulk of the nuggets found in Alaska are found with VLF detectors.

Steve Herschbach

[AZNuggetBob]

Hi,

Had to get in my two cents. I agree with Grubstake. It is like arguing which is better, pliers or a hammer? It just depends on what you wanto to do. Realistically, price also does matter. For some people a used VLF for a few hundred bucks is all they can afford.

If I were headed to digs south of Anchorage more often than not I'd use a Gold Bug 2. Also for finding hardrock gold north of town. If I were headed to Ganes Creek tomorrow I know of no better unit than a White's MXT for that particular set of conditions. And at my own mine at Moore Creek there is no doubt Minelabs rule supreme. I can say with quite a bit of confidence however that the bulk of the nuggets found in Alaska are found with VLF detectors.

Steve Herschbach

Steve, I have heard several people state that VLF's either find or have found more gold than PI's

If you consider that VLF's have been around a lot longer and that by sales statistics they probably outnumber PI's 10 to 1 would this not explain that?

Let me put it this way: If you send out a search party with ten people with PI's and send out a search party with a hundred people with VLF's which search party will be most successful?

Don't forget to give the VLF search party a fifteen year head start.

AzNuggetBob

[montana]

Reg. I know that you know more about the physics of metal detectors than most people on earth. I also read in one of your above replies that you detect only about 2 weeks a year. I have to take exceptions with some of your statements, having spent most of the last 18 years detecting nearly full time, the first 7 years of that with VLFs exclusively, finding thousands of nuggets in many countries and States. I feel that I was fairly good with the VLFs . The whole time I was using VLFs I only dug 2 nuggets at anywhere approaching 1 foot deep and these were in very benign sandy soil. 1 was 3 ounces and one was 1 ounce. I never had to carry any digging tool other than a small geologist pick. I do believe that a VLF could be adjusted to go much deeper, but with it adjusted in that way would be unusable once underway over the mineralized ground. One only has to take a look at the size of the digging tools that PI users carry, to know that there is more than double the depth to deal with while swinging a PI. As for weight ? My Whites V-Sat killed my arm and shoulder and I had to chest mount the box . Same with the gold bug. My GP? I swing it all day and it feels like nothing it is so well balanced and I'm 61 years old now. My 100 pound 60 year old sweetie swings her GP3500 5 or 6 hours a day with no problem . Her XT18000 killed her arm after an hour. It's all in the balance! Heavy battery? Lithium technology solved that. In my opinion the weight of a GP is of no concern and most newcomers are amazed that the GPs and SDs aren't hard on their arm at all and have no trouble with them at all. Look at most of the retirees at Stanton. 60 to 80 years old and most of them are using the "heavy Minelabs" Most of your statements also refer to the older models of Minelab PIs and don't even address the newest Minelab, the GPX4000. Those in the know about this machine can take exception to many of your statements about hotrocks, interference, and ground handling, especially highly mineralized clay. It's a whole new world out there. While other manufacturers have been struggling to catch up with Minelab, they have just fallen much farther behind. Lots of folks who have caught on to what is happening are keeping quiet. Invisible nuggets? Not so invisible anymore. Tiny nuggets? Pinheads no problem. I won't even mention depths on half gram nuggets. I would be called a liar. 24 K club ground? not near hot enough to really see the advantages of the 4000. Lots of gold from old patches? Did you visit some of the most pounded at Rich Hill Like the 3 lb. patch? When I went over there 2 months ago there was only 2 fresh holes from this season. You wouldn't believe the fresh holes there now and most of them were gold. 2 or 3 times the depth of VLFs with same size coils on undug nuggets? At least!!!

All the theory and lab tests really don't mean a thing as far as I can tell. I know you don't want to hear this but there are things going on in the ground that all the engineering concepts and theories just can't address, and unexplainable things happen that defy all logic or calculations. I would have to say the metal detecting science is one of the least exacting sciences.

Everything that I have read that Dave Emory is trying to achieve with the Pulse Devil has been taken care of with the GPX 4000 except price and the discrimination as far as I can tell, and from some quick testing this seems to be somewhat improved. I can go under power lines with very little loss of depth or sensitivity and very little if any interference. I can go into the basalt hotrock hell of the western El Paso Mountains , and hardly hear a hotrock. The large banded ironstone are still a problem in some places though and I doubt anything can get rid of these. I would bet money that a discriminator that worked well on a PI would be very difficult to achieve with out seriously compromising depth and sensitivity.

What's happening with the Pulse Devil testing in OZ. Wasn't it supposed to happen this month? And at Rich Hill on the 10th of March? Haven't heard much on the PD lately. Talk about hype. If it is half what Dave says it will be , it will be a miracle.

The Infinium? It's been left so far back in the dust that I'll bet Garret never attempts another PI.

And about forums for VLF users. There are some, but draw little interest, at least from those who run PIs regularly. VLFs are ancient technology and are becoming more for the very casual hobbyists. Very casual hobbyists may not be as passionate about discussions. Someone who forks out the bucks for a ML PI is not only passionate about detecting but most likely obsessed beyond all reason. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth. You asked for it Rob. ----Bob

[Reg]

Hi Wirechief,

You are a radio buff. Lets have some fun and confuse a few people if you don't mind.

Ok, here goes. The general concensus is the ML's push a lot more current into the coil and that is why they go deeper. Is this really true?

If it is, then the VLF has much less current in its coils at any time. Makes sense so far, right?

Now, the VLF uses a tuned LC circuit for the transmit coil and the PI absolutely does not.

So, Wirechief, what happens to the current in a parallel tuned high Q LC circuit? Now, I am not talking about the current needed to get it started, but what does the theory say about the current in the coil and the capacitor of a high Q parallel LC circuit at resonance? To keep it simple, lets assume the resistance involved approaches zero.

Reg

[AZNuggetBob]

I agree with you Montana. except that I hip mount my 2100 because even with a bugee cord swinging the box is a bit much all day. When I found the three pound patch many of the nuggets were shallow. Less than five inches.I was using a gold bug, they had not invented the Minelab 2000 yet. As time went by the nuggets got deeper and harder to find. As a matter of fact I eventual quit going there because of this. Then they came out with the Minelab 2000 I bought one and took it there and took out 4 oz. in two days. What can I say? But they weren't itty bitty pieces, they were solid and deep nuggets. AzNuggetBob

[prospectinginoz]

" Everything that I have read that Dave Emory is trying to achieve with the Pulse Devil has been taken care of with the GPX 4000 except price and the discrimination as far as I can tell, and from some quick testing this seems to be somewhat improved. "

With respect Montana how can you make this statement when you so little about the PD ? Can you for example use a transmit pulse on the 4000 of 1500u secs( If you want to)=at least 5x longer than a 4000? Can the 4000 reliably discriminate to full Pi depth? Can you adjust the operating frequency over a very large range range on the 4000? Can you store up to 250 of your own settings onboard the 4000and give each a unique ID or name? Can you read the LCD screen on the 4000 in poor light or the dark without a flashlight ? Can you use the 4000 when it is raining? Can you use co axail coplanar coils on ther 4000? Can the 4000 menu and setting it up be operated from just ONE knob? Can you change the operating parameters on the 4000 using just 2 fingers and without having to stop detecting? Can the 4000 run for up to 16 hours on one battery and is the battery integrated into it? There is a lot more on the PD but you will have to wait.

No my friend the 4000 has not taken care of all the issues and fact it gives the impression of being a work in progress.

Why is the PD taking longer than expected, very simple Dave is working his bum off to make certain that he tries to get it right FIRST time and he is responding to the needs and feed back of many consumers. For this I admire him and of course he is a ONE man band. Of course the Pd has to perform where it really counts and that we are about to find out. I personally will pull no punches if it does not!

Doug

[Reg]

Hi Montana,

Your post was quite interesting. I appreciate your left handed compliments.

As for my huntng only twice a year, that is correct, but I do put in hundreds of hours in testing and tring different things each year and do this for the fun of it just to see what I can improve upon.

Now, I have a few simple questions for you. Were you aware magnetite would easily mask a nugget signal all that time you used the VLF? If not, when did you first become aware of it, or do you believe it doesn't happen?

As for the Pulse Devil, I really hope Dave Emery can make the March 10 deadline. I would prefer to let the detector speak for itself. I personally feel it will perform as advertized.

Are you serious that your 100 lb "sweetie" can lug the ML around for 5 to 6 hours a day? She is tougher than I am. Then again, I don't want to lug one around for that length of time either.

Reg

[gazzaq]

Hi Gary,

It has been a very long time since I last saw the test run by Finders. Did the test display what I remember or is my memory fading? I would appreciate seeing a copy of it again, so if you could scan it and post it, I would appreciate it. I would like to look at it again to see if I remember it correctly.

Thanks,

Reg

Reg and all,

I have finally attached the test report that I think Reg is referring too. Click on the link below.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~quarman1/Finders.doc

In one of the paragraphs on page 3 of the report an interesting point (How Minelab test their detectors) is made and I have often asked myself the same question.

On the Minelab SD-GP Mod forum, where I frequently post, I did pose a similar question but I changed my mind and deleted the post thinking I would not get an answer.

However maybe with the large membership and visitors to this forum someone might know of Miinelab's methods used to test and compare before the release of a new model?

GaryQ

[Inhere]

Heck, Reg,

I don’t care which hand compliments are handed out, I still like them!

But I gotta agree with Montana on the balance of these Minelab PI’s.

I’m over 60, kinda thin and I smoke to much, and I still even use the l/a battery cause It helps to balance out the big coils I swing.

Doug,

Now your gone and spoiled everything, I’ve always had a 100% score in disagreeing with you.

But I also see the 4000 as very much an interim model. I do think that the next one will be very, very good.

I have been reading up on the PD and I think It should be right up there, In fact I think It will be a must have machine, even If you still keep your Minelab.

I for one understand, that doing the software for the thing would be a nightmare.

So I hope he takes his time and gets it right.

[Reg]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the post and the link. I am not home right now so I will have to wait until I get home to save it. Jeez, my memory isn't as bad as I thought it was.

Now, the last bit of information about the VLf and the fact that bad ground does cause more problems and makes it tougher is very true. However, it doesn't mean the signals are gone. Instead, they are buried in the ground noise among other things. The trick is to know how to get them out.

Next comes the issue of what constitutes "bad ground". That is an issue that we can debate for a long time.

Now, Montana has sort of agreed with me, via the back door, that the ground on the 24K isn't that bad. It shouldn't be considered bad, I can operate a PI with no ground balance quite easily there if I use a DD or now, a concentric coil.

Thanks again,

Reg

[Reg]

Hi Inhere,

First things first, you gotta quit smoking. You will feel better. Well, at least, that is what they tell me and it has been three years since I quit and I am still waiting.

Now, since you like the balance of the ML, do you also find the ML to be easier to carry than the Goldbug, like Montana? I think you also mentioned you owned an XT model also. Now, about the XT18000, didn't that unit come with both a chest mount setup or the ability to position the control box under the forearm, or did I add that to mine? I thought I added it on the earlier models but it came standard on the 18000.

I always thought with the control box mounted under the forearm, the XT was one of the best balanced units and was light. Hmmm, I am going to have to dig mine out and see.

Now, as for the PD and the software issue, I agree. There are so many ways to write the stuff one can get stuck just trying to select the best technique.

Now, along those lines and off the subject a bit, I remember a project at work where I was given a project to write software for the detection of defects and alignment of signals on an ultrasonic machine that analyzed rails for defects. Now, this wasn't a metal detector, but a metal defect detector. If I remember correctly , the operating frequency of the sensors were 2 megahz and 4 mhz.

Here is basically is all the information I was told to make my end work. There is going to be 13 different sensors positioned anywhere along a 6 foot assembly that will detect the defects in the rail as it travels by at about 240 feet a minute through the test unit. Your job is to capture those signals from defects, store them as simple bits of info in inch increments, and align the output signals of each sensor so they line up properly with respect to the end of the rail as it is displayed on paper and the CRT. There would be a pulse tach generating the inch pulse indications. Now, I was to make it extremely easy to adjust the software in the event any sensor had to be moved. I was then given the software package to write the program and told it had to be done in about 3 weeks. Now, that was a fun project.

BTW, I am too old and lazy to do that kind of stuff now.

Reg

[Inhere]

G’day Reg,

Not smoking for 3 years is a great effort. 3 days Is about as far as I get, then my family will vote to buy a pack and leave them on the table.

No I haven’t got an 18000, but I’m thinking of buying one for my wife. Mainly to stop her following me around and helping me. She has a habit of grabbing handfuls of dirt and waving them under the coil, while she is still wearing her wedding ring.

The control box under the forearm does sound the way to go. I think that the chest mount would drive me crazy.

Mate, that project sounds like the stuff nightmares are made out of. I’ve only played around with engine management systems and a few plc’s. I’ve often mused about trying to make up an interface for the port in the 3000 and trying to download the rom, but I guess i’m to too lazy these days.

With all the functions Dave wants to incorporate into the PD, the software would be quite a task to get right first go.

That finders test has me even more confused. In the ones I went to, the GMT would not pick up a 5/8 dia cupro nickel coin, flat in the ground at 6â€

[Reg]

Hi Inhere,

I would fully expect the GMT to go deeper than the older Whites used in the Finder's test.

Now, when you saw the GMT test, who was conducting the tests and why? I am wondering if they didn't use a little snake oil in the process.

Now, I mentioned how easy it is to cause a VLF to not see targets. The trick is to simply place a rock with magnetite in it very close to the target and, bingo, the target disappears. One can do this without having the magnetite signal be too obvious either. I have had several conversations with VLF owners in the past and none indicated they were aware of this condition or how easy it was to cause a nugget to not be heard. So, I could see how one could skew a test if they wanted to.

Personally, I would really like to know how many people are aware of how easy it is to mask a nugget with a piece of magnetite or even a granite rock containing magnetite for that matter. That is why I asked Montana when he became aware of it.

Come on VLF owners, please speak up. Is this info old news to you? One of the reasons I brought up the issue is I couldn't find people who knew about it when I was using VLF's. However, since I have been away from them for a while, I didn't know if the issue has been discussed much at all.

Now, if it is relatively new info, I do hope people will try the test of placing a decent size nugget next to a piece of magnetite , ground balance to the general ground and then pass over the rock and nugget combination and see what happens with your VLF. It really is something a person should know if they are serious about hunting with the VLF. Also, I would like to know what people find as to how critical the ground balance setting is.

Now, getting back to the XT18000, I really didn't mind either the chest mount or the under the arm mount. When I chest mounted the unit, I used a second strap around my chest to keep the control unit form sort of flopping around when I bent over to dig (the main strap holding the control box was around my neck) . By keeping the control box snug to my chest, it was comfortable and out of the way. Now, I didn't like using the chest mount without the second strap. Also, I had a piece of elastic sown in the second strap so it could stretch when necessary. That made it much less binding.

As for the mounting the control unit on the shaft under the arm, one should use something to keep the unit from sliding off the mount. I used Velcro, but I use that stuff for about everything. Heck, on my last trip to AZ to hunt nuggets, I had one test coil housing held together with Velcro. It looked a little stupid, but worked fine.

Reg

[AZNuggetBob]

Hi Reg, As far as magnetite blocking nuggets on a VLF. Here's a neat trick that Larry Salae Demonstrated in the video we did together with a Whites goldmaster. He took a approximately 1 gram nugget layed it on the ground and put a piece of hematite on top of it. He ground balanced the machine to the side of it and swung over it, nothing no signal at all. Then he put the coil on top of the hematite and pressed the ground balance button re-balancing the detector. then he swung over the hematite and nugget again and Bing bang clear signal????? Don't know if this works on all VLF's but its worth a try???? As far as you still waiting to feel better after quiting smoking? If you think you don't feel better try starting again I did. It sucks. Take care AzNuggetBob

[Wirechief]

Hi Wirechief,

You are a radio buff. Lets have some fun and confuse a few people if you don't mind.

Ok, here goes. The general concensus is the ML's push a lot more current into the coil and that is why they go deeper. Is this really true?

If it is, then the VLF has much less current in its coils at any time. Makes sense so far, right?

Now, the VLF uses a tuned LC circuit for the transmit coil and the PI absolutely does not.

So, Wirechief, what happens to the current in a parallel tuned high Q LC circuit? Now, I am not talking about the current needed to get it started, but what does the theory say about the current in the coil and the capacitor of a high Q parallel LC circuit at resonance? To keep it simple, lets assume the resistance involved approaches zero.

Reg

Hi Reg, I'm sorry to be so long in getting back to you. I'm at work right now. The voltage will rise to it's highest value along with the impedance while the total current will drop to its absolute minimum value at resonance in this type circuit. so the impedance will pass the resonant frequency. The high Q will give the circuit a very narrow bandwidth too. I still view a VLF metal detector almost as a radio with a loop antenna on the end of it. I sure do need to build that HH PI Reg. I'll get it done someday. Ok I will see ya later Reg and God Bless.

John Tomlinson,CET

John's Detectors

[montana]

Doug. Respectfully to you, I did state that the discrimination is still a problem with the GPX4000. As for 250 stored settings? I have the ability to store three on the GPX and don't use that feature at all . I think it's a totally worthless concept. I can within seconds set the GPX to the ground conditions as they exist at that moment (soil moisture, interference levels etc.). Rain? I've spent hours detecting in the rain with all my Minelab PIs . Never had a problem . One knob? Gosh I have to use two with the GPX . I find that no handicap at all. LCD screen ? Yeah it could be better, but no big deal. 16 hours on a battery? Geez I can't detect more than ten hours in a day and my GPX recharges in an hour or so and I don't mind carrying it in a backpack. It's light as a feather. A work in progress? I would hope so. Progress is what we want in detector technology. Every detector is a work in progress.

If Dave would have concentrated on features that are truely worthwhile , his detector would have been finished and on the market by now, but he obviously listened to too much input from too many people who might not have known what is truely important.

I have to plead ignorance on the Usec issue or the coplaner coil thing . I'm no electronics expert . I just know that The GPX is the best detector I've ever used and I'm finding lots of gold with it. After the first scarey week with it I finally found that it was indeed dead simple to use, which may not be the case with the P.D. I just don't know , nor does anyone else yet. Time will tell. Dave has taken on a huge task in trying to come up with something to compete with the industry leader. He may have been better off by keeping his project secret until it was finished and fully feild tested. Since it was self financed he had no reason to publish any info to draw in investors. We've seen the pre production hype backfire on several upstarts which breeds skeptiscism in many people , myself included. He now has a huge expectation to meet, and it will take a lot of proving for many of us to take his claims seriously. Again this is my opinion and this thread was started by Rob to stir up some discussion, and it certainly has.----Bob

[dutch john]

Gosh everyone... everything from A to Z has been covered within this

post... which I will say is becoming a great debate.

Now to "move" this thread into newer(?) ground I will make a comment

limited to a VLF concentirc vis a PI mono:

Now lets assume the search coil in this hypothetical example is an 11-inch

diameter circular.

VLF search coils have two windings: Simplemindedly... lets say one is an

outer receiver loop of 10- inches. Then the inner transmit is one of

six-inches. Thus the "working" diameter of the coil is not the full diameter

of the 11-inch outer coil casing... Also, it is not 10 inches as it is limited by

the inner the six-inch transmit coil.

Now consider this: A 11-inch circular outer diameter PI mono coil which

uses the same outer 10-inch single winding. Thus the effective search coil

coverage will also be larger as it is not limited to the separate inner trasmit

coil.

This gives a PI a considerable advantage over a VLF. Let us assume, in

this hypotetical example, that in most conditions a VLF or PI will "beep" a

"smaller" nugget at six inches. But the VLF coil coverage will be small...

A tight overlap is needed to effectively cover the ground. It is too easy

to miss the signal... Whereas, the PI will have an advantage in covering

more ground...

[AZNuggetBob]

Dutch John, I was useing a 14 inch coil on the Gold Bug and a 8 inch on the 2000! I should have included the coil sizes in the original post. That would have taken some of the guessing out of it. AzNuggetBob

[montana]

Reg. I was fully aware that magnetite was causing me trouble by masking nuggets. My first detector was the totally miserable Garret Scorpion. I bought it as a totally ignorant newbie . The salesman had the smoke and mirrors test box with the large piece of magnetite on top of the sand and a tube under neath it which allowed a nugget on a stick to be slid back and forth underneath the magnetite. The coil was then set on top of the magnetite and adjustments made to the detector. The nugget indeed did register when slid back and forth under the magnetite. I soon learned that this was just a scam to fool newbies and a nugget under or near magnetite could not be detected when the coil was swung over it in a normal fashion. These scam boxes were common in detector shops for years, but most people are wise to them now and they seem to have disappeared. What works on the test bench or in the detector shop rarely equates to worthwhile performance in the real world. Most of us are now aware that before Minelab even gives any hints on a new detector coming out, that it has already been through extensive testing ON THE GROUND by professional detectorists.

And yes Betsy has no problem whatsoever with the Minelabs weight nor does anyone I know once they get comfortable with it and develope an easy relaxed swing, which is another story. You can make inertia work for you or you can fight it and beat yourself to death . Many folks who don't detect often never quite get into the rythm where detecting becomes almost effortless despite the weights involved. Improper placement of the handle grip can be a killer of the arm also and has to be placed to where proper balance is achieved when setting up the detector for the wide variety of body types and forearm lengths. Here again it sounds like Dave has been told that a detector has to be feather light to be attractive to buyers . Those who swing the Minelabs all the time will scoff at any mention of weight being any kind of a deciding factor when purchasing a new machine. This being said, I do believe the control box on the GPX 4000 is a little lighter than on previous GPs.

Hurry up Dave! We're waiting !!!! I'll be first in line for one if it will find more gold than my GPX4000.----Bob

[AZNuggetBob]

Montana If you watch the video or read my post you will see this test was done out in the field not in a scam box. AzNuggetBob