Next Generation of Detectors


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Hi All,

I have posted similar information on another forum but have expanded the information a little over here.

As I mentioned, there is an interesting discussion going on over on the prospectinginoz (POZ) forum pertaining to one of Allan Westersten's patents for a new detector design. Allan Westersten is the engineer who designed the Goldsweepr PI, which is the second discriminating PI we hope to see on the 24th of March.

The concept is a design using both PI and VLF type technologies to produce a hybrid. I wish I had been aware of this patent prior to the previous posts pertaining to VLF's. One of the points I initially attempted to make was the efficiency of the coil on a VLF has advantages. As it was, my idea got sidetracked.

Allan has done a brief but excellent job of explaining the advantage of the tuned coil (VLF) with the PI. I believe his words were "I have measured an improvement by a factor of 50 over a GP-3000". Now, this doesnt' mean a depth improvement but refers to the coil signal as seen from a specific distance from the coil, which ultimately can be translated into depth increases.

Hopefully, Rob can remember a few years back when I discussed some information about a new PI design George Payne was working on and the possible depth increase, the designed appeared to be capable of. At the time, I was given more information than I could discuss and some of it sounds similar. However, George indicated he would be working with currents in excess of 30 amps and could be done without excessively large batteries.

What is eerie about Allan's patent, the technique used, and the method to test the advantage is several years ago I ran some tests on the SD 2100 for George Payne where I measured the signal out of the coil of my Dad's unit, so George could see if ML was using the idea and the power output. George Payne was working on a PI design at the time and he had casually mentioned the hybrid idea. He also mentioned the coil current would be drastically higher and depth increases would reflect it. The technique I used to measure the coil power was done using the method identical to the mentioned by Allan in the post on the POZ forum.

The design George was working on was tabled because of noise concerns, I believe. The idea was to be used in a noisy industrial environment, so George thought there would be too many problems to deal with.

It appears now that George Payne and Allan Westersten were working on very similar designs at about the same time. Because of the recent discussions on the POZ forum, I think I have more of the puzzle left by by my conversations with George Payne, figured out. The idea of the high currents using smaller batteries had me stumped. As it was, I was looking in the wrong place for the answers.

Anyway, the new design concept is something to think about.

Reg

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I agree Reg, I think there are some great things coming in PI design, I honestly believe as far as Minelab is concerned, the GPX series is not far from being placed in a housing not unlike the X 70 platform with the Li batt pod under the forearm. The other thing that folks seem to be discussing is the ability to Disc iron etc. For me that is an either or, as I have not used a Disc circuit in over 30 yrs of nugget hunting with lots of different detectors....If you leave manageble trash items in the ground anywhere, what it is masking is left for someone with a little more patience or expertise, and that happens more then you would like to believe. I hunted in Hawaii with a very successful ringhunter for a couple of weeks in Dec, in his front yard were two trucks, one a brand new Ford Ranger and an old rusty Ranger with the bed full of trash. He has spent years cleaning his hunting areas around the island that he lives on, and his theory of Detecting mirrors mine, I pick it up and haul it out if possible, the new Ford Ranger this fellow owns was purchased with Gold, Silver and Platinum rings he has found over the years ..... We used to hear once in a while about someone bagging a Tobacco can or Baking powder can with goods , don't very often hear about that any more and I think that is because folks are obsessed with Discing iron etc. We used to Detune our TRs or VLFs and check target sizes that were buried a little deeper then a surface item and thats one of the reasons I still carry one of those units with me when I am banging around in areas far from the beaten path and I am very careful what I say about things that I have found over the years.......HH...Geo

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Hi Geo,

You bring up some good points about the weakness of the discrimination feature and one of them is the masking. If a large piece of iron is directly above a nugget, I suspect this masking will occur on the two designs coming for testing. We will check though to be sure.

Your discussion about the guy with the two trucks also points out the other half of the equation and that is, it takes years and a whole lot of time to clear an area of trash so little masking can occur.

People like me who hunt on a limited time basis do not have the years available to eliminate the trash problem. So, for me, the disc feature is ideal. I can live with the small percentage of nuggets that trash does mask if I don't have to dig all the other trash in the mean time.

Reg

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Hi Reg, I wonder do you only hunt for gold nuggets? Does your job limit you greatly in getting to metal detect more? Also I get the understanding that maybe you spend a lot of time at the test bench. I don't mean to be nosey Reg. I hope you will eventually be able to swing a coil a lot more. I always enjoy your posts too. Ok God Bless ya Reg.

John Tomlinson,CET

John's Detectors

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Hi John,

I think the big problem for me is distance. I normally hunt for nuggets in AZ but live in Colorado, so I have a 12 hour drive. This doesn't not allow me to hunt that often because I don't like the drive involved just to get there.

I enjoy modifying my detectors and then trying them to see how much of an improvement I have accomplished. Unfortunately, the only way to initially test those improvements is to try to simulate conditions since I test using both air and buried target testing. Then I have to wait until my next trip to actually try the results in the field.

Does work interfer? Yes because it limits the amount of time I have to devote to detecting. On the other side of the coin, I still need the job to provide an income and medical benefits. So, I am stuck. I figure I will only have to work a year or so after I die to get caught up.

Reg

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Hi Reg, I perfectly understand your situation because I am there too. When you have a medical condition that medical insurance that my job provides is something I have to have. I wanted to go to the Farmington gold show this weekend and setup a booth but it is just too far away. Such is life Reg. By the way what is the POZ forum? I wonder if Compass is completely shut down now? I have got a Compass Gold Scanner Pro and sure would like to get a schematic of it. Is Eric still improving his GS5B?

Ok Reg thanks for shedding some light on your situation and looks like we have a similar way of life. CU later Reg and God Bless ya.

John Tomlinson,CET

John's Detectors

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Hi All,

I have posted similar information on another forum but have expanded the information a little over here.

As I mentioned, there is an interesting discussion going on over on the prospectinginoz (POZ) forum pertaining to one of Allan Westersten's patents for a new detector design. Allan Westersten is the engineer who designed the Goldsweepr PI, which is the second discriminating PI we hope to see on the 24th of March.

The concept is a design using both PI and VLF type technologies to produce a hybrid. I wish I had been aware of this patent prior to the previous posts pertaining to VLF's. One of the points I initially attempted to make was the efficiency of the coil on a VLF has advantages. As it was, my idea got sidetracked.

Allan has done a brief but excellent job of explaining the advantage of the tuned coil (VLF) with the PI. I believe his words were "I have measured an improvement by a factor of 50 over a GP-3000". Now, this doesnt' mean a depth improvement but refers to the coil signal as seen from a specific distance from the coil, which ultimately can be translated into depth increases.

Hopefully, Rob can remember a few years back when I discussed some information about a new PI design George Payne was working on and the possible depth increase, the designed appeared to be capable of. At the time, I was given more information than I could discuss and some of it sounds similar. However, George indicated he would be working with currents in excess of 30 amps and could be done without excessively large batteries.

What is eerie about Allan's patent, the technique used, and the method to test the advantage is several years ago I ran some tests on the SD 2100 for George Payne where I measured the signal out of the coil of my Dad's unit, so George could see if ML was using the idea and the power output. George Payne was working on a PI design at the time and he had casually mentioned the hybrid idea. He also mentioned the coil current would be drastically higher and depth increases would reflect it. The technique I used to measure the coil power was done using the method identical to the mentioned by Allan in the post on the POZ forum.

The design George was working on was tabled because of noise concerns, I believe. The idea was to be used in a noisy industrial environment, so George thought there would be too many problems to deal with.

It appears now that George Payne and Allan Westersten were working on very similar designs at about the same time. Because of the recent discussions on the POZ forum, I think I have more of the puzzle left by by my conversations with George Payne, figured out. The idea of the high currents using smaller batteries had me stumped. As it was, I was looking in the wrong place for the answers.

Anyway, the new design concept is something to think about.

Reg

Hi Reg,

Sometimes, when the time is ripe, certain ideas crop up in the minds of several people at the same time.

Wen I designed my first metal detector I was actually working on a magnetic flowmeter. The scheme I used to demodulate the signal was perfectly adapted for use in a metal detector.

As a matter of fact, George Payne thought so too, since he referenced my design in one of his metal detector

patents.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...p;RS=Westersten

Owing to the problems I encountered with the sine-wave flowmeter I abandoned the idea of using it and

moved on to the PI design. Now, strangely, I've come full cirlcle.

I should clarify: the detector I hope to be able to demonstrate at Rich Hil does not use all of the technology in the latest patent. The GoldSweeper is a straight PI detector with Fe/Non-Fe descrimination.

I'm still struggling with the software for the detector and the situation is touch and go...

Allan

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Hello Reg, George P, & Allen,

I think it great you guys continue to work on PI design. I'm hoping in the near future there will be something to match the Minelab's. Minelab's are great and I've found pounds of gold with them, but the price is just a bit high! :(

Take care,

Rob Allison

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