New Whites PI

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi Largo,

Yeah, it is all just speculation until we actually see a unit. I'm surprised that we are getting any advance notice at all of the unit as White's is usually very tight lipped. I prefer it that way as opposed to hearing about units and then having months or years pass before you see them, if ever.

I do have a soft spot for White's. The first unit I ever owned was a White's Coinmaster IV and I've owned a lot of White's units since. Some of their units have been a bit lackluster and many have been outstanding, like the MXT. But there have been hardly any real turkeys. White's generally builds good quality, good performing units and so that is what I'm expecting now.

Steve Herschbach

[RTP]

Now that the 4th has come and gone, any news on a release date yet?

[Digger Bob]

Now that the 4th has come and gone, any news on a release date yet?

I knew that when Greg posted that date he was being optomistic. As with any new product, when things seem to be going just fine, all of a sudden something unexpected pops up. So I'm going to hedge that a bit further and say "sometime this fall". We wanted to get it out sooner but different things have delayed it. Not the least is that "we prospectors" are holding firm against the marketing people. We are insisting that it has to be right, from the circuitry down to the ergonomics. Everything has to work in as many situations as we can conjure up. I'm actually taking it out this afternoon for some more testing in serpentine ground mixed with red hemetite. Hang tough, guys, it's coming!

Digger Bob

[nuggethunting]

Hello Bob,

Since you're playing around with the detector, can you tell us if the unit is a "Multi-purpose" or strickly a "Gold Nugget Hunting" metal detector?

I'm sure I won't be parting from the GPX-4000 anytime soon, but would be interested in knowing more about an American PI.

Keep us updated,

Rob Allison

[RTP]

I saw some pictures that Greg posted on one of the other forums. He was working the wet sand at one of the beaches in his area and the depth look pretty impressive.

[Digger Bob]

Hello Bob,

Since you're playing around with the detector, can you tell us if the unit is a "Multi-purpose" or strickly a "Gold Nugget Hunting" metal detector?

I'm sure I won't be parting from the GPX-4000 anytime soon, but would be interested in knowing more about an American PI.

Keep us updated,

Rob Allison

Ah Rob, that's a trick question;-) Is the Minelab GP a muti-purpose machine? Of course it is! With it's superior depth and no mineralization detection, think what you could find on a Civil War battlefield. 12 lb. cannonballs at 5 ft? Sure, no problem! Belt plates at 3 ft? Absolutly! On the beach, dubloons at 2 ft? You bet! But, how many people actually use them for that? Some for sure, but not many.

The problem is not sensitivity on a PI machine, it's iron disc. PI's love iron and the ground is loaded with old iron. The one type of treasure hunting that encounters the LEAST amount of iron trash is nugget hunting. We encounter plenty to be sure, but imagine trying to dig every target on a battlefield or school yard. Just not feasible. So the emphasis for PI machines has been geared toward nugget hunting and beach hunting (where the digging is easier). No one yet has been able to come up with a reliable iron disc. on a PI machine, although they are all trying. Water proof-ness also comes into play here for the beach hunter. There are several excellant PI beach machines on the market, so that area is covered pretty well...but...

So in answer to your question; yes and no. How's that? Sorry, can't say much more than that right now.

I'll keep you updated as much as I can.

Digger Bob

[Reno Chris]

Digger Bob:

You guys have some input into the design process, so I'd like to make some comments.

One of the things that make the Minelab PIs such great tools for nugget detecting is the great variety of diverse accessory coils available. On a number of patches, I have gone over the area with one coil and gotten gold, then gone over the same patch with a different coil and somewhat different settings on the detector and gotten good gold again as a larger coil picks up deeper nuggets or switching to a small coil picks up smaller ones that another coil missed, etc.

Eric Foster's gold scan coils have been able to use some or all of the minelab accessory coils. I would urge you to make sure that this new detector can use all the Coilteks, minelab and Nugget finder accessory coils. Probably Whites would not be so excited to share their accessory coil business with these other companies, but it will make the detector a much more desirable unit. One of the biggest knocks against the Infinium has always been that it does not have the necessary accessory coils available to be a great prospecting detector. If the new Whites unit can use the available coils, it will be an inherently stronger product than the Infinium right out of the box.

I know you are an experienced prospector and I am sure you probably have thought of all these things and more, but you can copy this post and show it to the Whites folks and show them that this is a list of reasonable things that prospectors out there really want:

1. Reliable descrimination: no discrimination system is perfect, but a detector that does discrimination as well as MXT would be just fine.

2. Mono mode - even if the discrimination does not work in mono, having such a mode available for greater sensitivity would make a big difference.

3. Able to use the accessory pulse coils currently on the market (see above).

4. Sensitive enough to detect a 2 grain nugget at 2 inches with a small mono coil (yah, it would be great if it were every bit a sensitive as a Minelab GP series detector, but it needs to be at least close. Another knock on the Infinium I have heard is that it wont pick up a nugget smaller than about 4 grains at all.)

5. Able to handle heavily mineralized soils as well as a Minelab GP. ( this has been one of the knocks against the GS5 detectors I have heard from people who used them)

6. Able to handle EM interference as well as a Minelab GP or better. ( I have heard the GS5 detectors are a lot better than the minelabs at this)

7. A full life battery if internally mounted. (this has been one of the knocks against the GS5 detectors I have heard from people who used them - battery life is 4-5 hours at most, and since it is not field replaceable, you have to come back to the car for a recharge. This stinks if you are hiking into a distant spot. If the battery cartridge can be changed out quickly in the field, no problem, but if not changeable, then it needs to last a full 8 hours at a minimum).

8. Flexible enough to configure for a variety of field conditions. (as I noted above different settings with different coils can pull gold from patches that was previously missed. Eric normally has a variety of adjustable settings with his designs, so there would likely be no problem with this.)

9. A waterproof optional version would be cool - it adds weight, so I recommend 2 versions, one waterproof and one not. This is not an essential option, but could be cool to have available.

I know you didn’t ask for comments, but I hope those at Whites will take note of this. If it does all the things noted above, I'd buy one. There are a lot of Minelab users who would buy such a detector for its descrimination ability if it met the requirements noted above. I also use and Minelab, but I say this as an avid MXT user and I even have my own set of web pages about using the MXT at:

http://nevada-outback-gems.com/MXT_files/MXT_basepage.htm

Chris

[nuggethunting]

Hello Chris,

I have to agree with you, Minelab metal detectors have so many aftermarket coils and accessories to even make them better at what they do.

Not knocking the GS5, but they seriously need to make some improvements on their battery system. Remember the guy that purchased one to head to Moore Creek? He spent thousands of dollars on the trip, thousands on the detector and only got to hunt for about 4 hours. I believe he mentioned it took at least half the day to charge the battery back up, and only to hunt another 4 hours ... Not sure how much the customer researched the detector and battery life before he made the purchase.

The plus side of it, the GS5 done very well on porous or "invisible gold" that the Minelab SD/GP's couldn't detect.

Jim French owned one and seemed to like the detector.

Take care,

Rob Allison

[Reg]

Hi Rob and Chris,

Obviously, neither of you have spent any time at all with the GS 5 because much of what both of you have said isn't correct or even close. So, lets take each issue, one at a time.

"1. Reliable descrimination: no discrimination system is perfect, but a detector that does discrimination as well as MXT would be just fine."

Fact: The discrimination feature on the GS 5 works with the mono coil and is quite reliable. actually, it is far superior to the ML discrimination system. It will miss some of the small pieces of tin, but larger pieces of iron will generally have a distinct signal. Now, some of the GS 5 owners have indicated they can even tell the real small bits of tin and iron most of the time. So, the disc system is superior to any other PI at this time. As for being equal or better than the MXT, I can't say.

"2. Mono mode - even if the discrimination does not work in mono, having such a mode available for greater sensitivity would make a big difference. "

Fact, the GS 5 works with both mono and DD coils or any other design one might want to try or build. BTW, building coils for the GS 5 isn't that hard.

"3. Able to use the accessory pulse coils currently on the market (see above)."

Fact; GS 5's can use all of the ML compatible coils except those that have the reversing switch. Even those with the reversing switch can be used but the signal is very strange. In other words, as a general rule if a coil works on a ML, it will work on the GS 5. I just don't recommend those with the reversing switch be used.

"4. Sensitive enough to detect a 2 grain nugget at 2 inches with a small mono coil (yah, it would be great if it were every bit a sensitive as a Minelab GP series detector, but it needs to be at least close. Another knock on the Infinium I have heard is that it wont pick up a nugget smaller than about 4 grains at all.)"

Fact: As for detecting a 2 grain nugget, if the ML can detect it, the GS 5 can also and in most cases better. Some small nuggets are simply invisible and can only be detected on special PI's such as my personal one. The GS 5 is far superior to the Infinium in this area.

"5. Able to handle heavily mineralized soils as well as a Minelab GP. ( this has been one of the knocks against the GS5 detectors I have heard from people who used them)"

Fact; As for the GS 5 ground balance feature, it is superior to the ML's by far. That has been discussed on the POZ forum how the GS 5 will work in places over there with a mono coil that are about impossible to hunt with th ML even with a DD. So, score another one for the GS 5.

"6. Able to handle EM interference as well as a Minelab GP or better. ( I have heard the GS5 detectors are a lot better than the minelabs at this)"

Fact; As for EM noise, the GS 5 is again far superior to the ML in handling external noise. Simply stated, the GS 5 doesn't hear all the aircraft, strange unknown noises, power line noises, alien spacecraft interference, or most of the other noise problems that plague the ML's. Ask any GS 5 owner who is using their unit and has experienced noisy areas with a ML. I know that one GS 5 owner who hunts in Nevada has informed me his GS 5 is about all he can use in some areas because the noise makes it almost impossible to use his SD. So, score another one for the GS 5

"7. A full life battery if internally mounted. (this has been one of the knocks against the GS5 detectors I have heard from people who used them - battery life is 4-5 hours at most, and since it is not field replaceable, you have to come back to the car for a recharge. This stinks if you are hiking into a distant spot. If the battery cartridge can be changed out quickly in the field, no problem, but if not changeable, then it needs to last a full 8 hours at a minimum)."

Fact; The battery life is about 7 to 8 hours on a charge. At the very onset when the GS 5 first came out, the charging of the battery required the charger be plugged into the main control box and the recommended charge was 16 hours or so, so Fred Mason did have a problem with that when he was in Alaska. Actually, with two batteries he should have been able to hunt easily 8 to 10 hours and charge the batteries for the other 14 to 16. Also, the unit could be switched to a 100 usec pulse and extend the battery life considerably.

However, had the issue be known in advance that he wanted to hunt for extended hours a simple external charger could have been built for him to take. I built one for Jim French and it cost almost nothing and took about 10 minutes to build. This would have eliminated the battery problem experienced by Fred. External chargers are now available, so that is a non issue now and has been for a very long time.

Issue two is about changing batteries. Anyone can easily change batteries in the field on a GS 5. Well, most anyone can. It does take a small screwdriver and the ability to turn the four case screws 1/4 turn to release them. Then it is a simple matter of unplugging one battery, removing it, and installing the spare. Most 5 year olds can do it with no problem. So, replacing the battery is not nor should not be a problem, except of course, you can't keep up with a 5 year old.

BTW, there is no power cord dangling so you won't break one of them or need a spare like you do with a ML.

"8. Flexible enough to configure for a variety of field conditions. (as I noted above different settings with different coils can pull gold from patches that was previously missed. Eric normally has a variety of adjustable settings with his designs, so there would likely be no problem with this.)"

Fact: A person has far more control over the GS 5 and knows what the controls do, if they take time to learn the basics. All controls are discussed at the basic and technical levels either in the manual or on websites. So, you have a much better control over the GS 5.

"9. A waterproof optional version would be cool - it adds weight, so I recommend 2 versions, one waterproof and one not. This is not an essential option, but could be cool to have available."

Fact; As for waterproof, well the GS 5 is water resistant or splash proof would be a better word. However, Eric's coils are waterproof and can be used in water.

So, if the Whites unit maintains the GS 5 features, it should meet most peoples goals.

Now, if the GS 5 does all the above things, then why isn't it more popular? Well, for starters, it doesn't work the same as the ML's so anyone changing from one to the other has to realize all signals are different. Most people do not like change, so little time is generally spent by new owners who have used ML's for a long time. However, the few who have stayed with it are now using the GS 5 for most of their hunting.

Then there is the issue of depth. Careful depth tests indicated the ML will go deeper when the ground is quiet and there is no interference. How much difference is there? Some testing in OZ indicate up to 20% on some gold. Of course, this changes when the noise level or mineralization level changes and then the GS 5 can easily be superior.

BTW, some recent mods have reduced this depth difference quite a bit.

I think I have answered all the questions. Again, if Whites maintains the GS 5 features, then they should have a decent PI for sale. If they use Li Ion batteries like I am using then the battery life will go up and will be easy to charge.

Reg

[nuggethunting]

Hello Reg,

The only point I didn't like was the battery system. Yes, Fred Mason was somewhat discouraged knowing he just purchased a GS5 and couldn't use it 3/4's of the day, while other guys were hunting 12-16 with Minelabs. I'm not sure he wasn't mis-informed about the detector and battery or he didn't do enough research.

Reg, you know me, and I've been using the Minelab PI's for 10+ years now on a very successful level as a recreational nugget hunting. It's going to take something very impressive, much better than the current Minelab PI's for me to make a change. However, I'm always open-minded, just haven't seen anything that will outperform what I'm using now.

Let do some testing between units when you back down here.

Rob Allison

[Reg]

Hi Rob,

I am not trying to convert you to the GS 5 or any other PI for that matter. Instead, I am simply trying to clear up some age old misconceptions of the GS 5 that have been spread on a regular basis for the last two years.

As for Fred and his trip to Alaska, I have no idea what was discussed before hand, so I am not sure why a simple external charger wasn't built for it before his trip. That was two years ago now and the battery problem has long since been taken care of yet it still is brought up today by people. What I don't understand is why?

Correcting the battery charging problem really wasn't a difficult task. I used parts I had available, except for the simple connector and they are used on many of the RC cars. I did have to get a couple of connectors from a hobby shop.

At the time of Fred's trip, my guess is no one even thought about battery life at the time or how long he might try to hunt. However, Fred should have been able to hunt for much longer than he did simply by using some basic techniques. All he had to do was turn his detector off when not actually hunting and his battery life should have been much longer. I have a GS 4 which has about the same battery life expectancy. In fact I used it when we were hunting together. I am able to use it all day on one battery. However, if I stopped even for a break for a few minutes, I turned it off. Also, I was using li Ion batteries which do have a little longer life span.

Now, you can turn down the pulse rate on the GS 5 and that increases your battery life quite a bit. As long as noise isn't a problem then one can leave the pulse rate down at the minimum rate which can easily add a lot of extra operating time.

What I don't understand is why people keep bitching about this one incident with the GS 5. My guess is a few ML's have quit in Alaska, but no one brings that up. In fact, I thought I read about that happening and Steve had to loan out a detector. Fred's unit didn't fail, it just had a shorter run time. This was a matter of not planning ahead and not one of a failure.

Now, on a different note, I know you like ML's and have been very successful with them. If you are happy with a detector, you should stay with it.

I personally did not like the ML harness and all the crap originally needed with the ML's so I just avoided them. For me, using all that harness wasn't fun.

Also, I enjoy building different types of coils just to see what happens and see how well they work. This is easy to do with Eric's detectors. As an example, I have one concentric coil that works exceptionally well. I have another test coil that is somewhat unique in its design as a noise canceling coil. It uses 3 receive windings. That coil is extremely quiet no matter where I use it and it also ground cancels. I do lose a little depth but not much.

Now, I wouldn't even want to try to build these type coils for a ML.

Hopefully, we can test detectors but this time lets try to match coil sizes so both are set up about the same.

Reg

[Reno Chris]

Reg:

My post was not about the GS5 - yes I mentioned it on comparison, but I metioned the Infinium by Garett, the MXT (a VLF detector by Whites) and the Minelabs as well. As Whites is using designs from Eric Foster, maybe the new whites detector is just going to be a GS5 with a few minor tweeks and a whites logo slapped on the box. On the other hand, given the time they have taken to develop it, I think there have been some more significant changes beyond just "a few minor tweeks". So your comments about the GS5 may or may not apply to the new Whites detector. As an example from my comments, it would certainly be tempting from a business standpoint to Whites to retain all the accessory coil business to themselves, no matter what the GS5 design is. If they decided to do that, Whites might well modify the design of the new detector to make it so that none of the existing aftermarket coils would work. I think that would be a bad decision, but I could see why Whites might seriously consider it.

At this point we just dont know.

My point was not to analysize pros and cons of the GS5 - this is not even a thread about the GS5. My point was to cite and perhaps discuss some issues which are important in producing a successful nugget detector, specifically regarding the new whites product. If you believe what I have noted is not important, please let us know.

Chris

[Reg]

Chris,

There is a reason that Whites went to Eric for a design and that is his knowledge and ability to build a good reliable detector.

Now, it is my understanding that Whites purchased the rights to the GS 5. They may or may not maintain all the features of the GS 5. However, I would expect them to do so. So, posting some of the features of the GS 5 and how it compares to the ML are most likely very relevant when discussing the Whites PI.

So my information could be of value to those who have little knowledge of PI's in general but may be interested in just what the new Whites might be like.

My previous post is for those who are actually interested and wonder just what might be in the works. I do not know just what White's is going to do, and that is why I posted what I did. However, I wouldn't expect them to change that much, so I strongly suspect my post does give an idea of what a person just might see in the new White's PI detector.

As for you providing Whites or people testing Whites detectors with your wish list, I suspect Whites, having made detectors as long as they have, do have a decent idea of what people would like to see in a new machine.

Finally, my previous post was also done to clarify some of the false information you have consistently written in your posts about the GS 5, some of which you did post in your post about the Whites unit.

Reg

[JW.]

As for you providing Whites or people testing Whites detectors with your wish list, I suspect Whites, having made detectors as long as they have, do have a decent idea of what people would like to see in a new machine.

From some observations recently I would say that White's is way behind the ball.

Minelabs are selling like wildfire and White's comes out with a new coil...?

Nothing against the White's brand, if you want some very critical input I can link you to a dealer/testers opinion, which was not well received...

Something new has been in the works for years it seems but nothing "new" appears, the M6 is not new, nor does it out perform the lower end Minelab machines.

Reg, I understand your input it is comprehensive and very informative but I think it points out the particular issue that some are trying to get at here.

Chris posted some great pointers and you basically said, what exists is perfectly fine. This maybe true but why are the GP and SD series MLs out selling the GS5 by like 100:1? Why are the Explorers out selling the DFX? Are all these people wrong or does the Minelab actually work better? I think this is the major sticking point at White's, what exists no longer cuts it and the numbers support that. The attitude should be, we need to out perform what is out there, and we need to do it now!!!

I am not brand loyal, I am performance loyal, give me a machine that gets better performance than what I have and even if Wal-Mart made it and it was pink, I would buy it yesterday!!!

When was the last time you saw a post that said, GS 5 gets 10 nuggets, nearly an ounce? In fact for the last 3 years I have heard NO mention of the GS5 in the gold fields, I had to do some serious looking a year ago to find one to test... Yes it is a great unit but why is it not selling like the GPX? Why has it practically disappeared?

The DFX is great but I bet I can find a dozen deep coins and ID them with the Explorer that the DFX won't even hear a whisper of a signal... As the number of detectorists grows the coins within the top 8" are rapidly being snatched up, where I live, with all the rain you get clad at 9", the DFX just doesn't cut it...

I personally don't care what White's does with their business but I do care if I could get a better machine, for White's sake I hope they kick butt on this new design and not sacrifice ability with ease of manufacture and design because Minelab doesn't look like it is slowing down their R&D.

A personal gripe I have about a few machines is the need to modify post purchase to get them to work the way that is needed. Upper end machines cost a bundle and to void the warranty to get it to work right is of no interest to most people.

To take a shot at Minelab I bought a new SE and within 5 minutes the screen split down the middle, simply not acceptable AT ALL for a $1100 item, I sent it back and my second unit did the same thing after a few weeks, POS in my opinion but others say "it doesn't effect the performance" sure but it IS broken... My Exp2 out performed the SE in my testing and I got rid of the SE because it made everything sound like deep silver, which was a by-product of accelerating the recovery speed.

If i'm sounding antagonistic I apologize that is not what I am trying to be. Please understand I respect your input and wisdom, you know your stuff!

HH

JW

[nuggethunting]

Hello Guys,

I'm loyal to one brand for one reason, "The Minelab detectors kick ass!" However, I'm always open to see what other detectors can do. Just haven't seen anything that will really impress me over the last 5 years. You hear about all these great detectors that are in the works, like the "Titan Project." What the heck happened to that deal? Ken Roberts promised us all a year ago we would see something ...

When a customer calls, the first thing I tell them is to get on all the Internet gold forums and see what people are using successfully to find nuggets. This is where you will find your answer. The customers always call back and say, seems like these Minelab detectors are the ones to consider.

Not knocking Garrett, but when it first came out their were several Garrett dealers telling people on the Internet forums that the Infinium was better than the SD's and was probably going to beat out the GP series. No one really knew, but I was very sceptical. A couple of friends went out and purchased the Infiniums strickly for gold nugget hunting and for the "so-called" great discriminator it had. Well, these guys used the Infiniums for about an hour and were back using their SD's. I sat and watched them dig a "so-called good target" with the reverse discrimation. After about an hour and two feet deep, it was a tin can!!

Just curious what happens to these dealers ... they seem to be very quiet anymore.

Reg - Yes, we need to try to equal the detectors out by using like sized coils. The GPX-4000 has much more control, so I'm able to tweak controls I couldn't on the GP3500.

Take care,

Rob Allison

[Reg]

JW,

You are right, Whites is late in bringing out a PI. I wished they had done it a long time ago. Maybe they would know more about how a PI works and we would be farther along in new designs. Unfortunately, even though PI's may seem simple, they are really quite complex and do take a while to fully understand from a technical standpoint.

One of the reasons most US manufactuers did not get into the PI machines for gold hunting is the fact, the early sales did not justify the expense involved in building a new design from scratch. At the time ML was getting started selling the SD series, US manufacturers felt the cost involved was more than the return. Manufacturers sell thousands of a model in many cases. At the time, it was estimated the sales of PI's might be 300 or so. So, it was hard to justify a lot of engineering time for such a small market. At least, that is what one of the major manufacturers told me.

It also my guess that is why Whites went to Eric Foster also. Why not fast track forward with a decent PI and learn from it.

Now, as for my "attitude" and your statement "Chris posted some great pointers and you basically said, what exists is perfectly fine." I am not sure just where you are coming from with this one. What I tried to do with the post is to clarify what might be coming and how it compares to what is presently available. I also tried to correct some of the BS that Chris has spread for quite some time, which is not true.

Another fact is, Whites makes a VLF gold machine and have made them for years. They know quite well what is needed to find gold and the problems involved.

If you are referring to making a discriminating PI, well if you or Chris think it is so easy, then feel free to make one. Nobody else has been able to produce one, except Alan Westersten and Dave Emery, and even they do not have them on the market yet.

So, do I think all is fine? Nope, I never even implied that, period. I would like to see a full discriminating PI but I am not going to try to tell Whites to make one or any other manufacturer for that matter

What most people do not realize is it is not that easy to make a decent PI, let alone a ground balancing one. This is one of the reasons Whites went to Eric in my opinion. I also think that is a smart move on their part.

Eric actually built the first ground balancing PI way before ML. Only a few people in the world have actually built a ground balancing PI let alone a discriminating PI. As for the concept of a discriminating PI, only one was ever made that was sold on the market and that one was again made by Eric Foster about the time he made the first ground balancing unit. Unfortunately, the disc mode did suffer because of the ground mineralization so the disc mode didn't work as well as it could. Again, most people do not know about that unit either.

The basic fact is, the fundamental design of the GS 5 is superior to other PI's in many ways. It doesn't suffer from all problems with different noise, it has a superior ground balance system, and the disc mode in place is superior. Could it be made better? Of course, but that will take a bit of doing. The depth issue is one that will be addressed in the future. I know I have been at this design stuff long enough to know the difficulties involved.

Now, as for your hype on ML's and how great they are, getting 10 nuggets on one outing takes patience, knowledge, ability and an area that hasn't been beaten to death. The detector plays a part but not as much as you might think. Operator skill is the main key. You have to remember, or at least, shouldn't forget, there are a whole lot of people out there that have been hunting for months with their new ML's and they are still looking for their first nugget. If the detector was the answer, this wouldn't be true.

As for GS 5 owners posting what they find, there is no doubt there are only a few being used here in the US, but they are finding gold with them. I know I communicate with one owner on a regular basis. Most of the GS 5 owners have given up posting what they find because they do not want to put up with the BS. Also more GS 5's are used for relic hunting at civil war sites. Regardless, who cares what people find and do not find?

Now, as I said, I am not pushing the GS 5 even though it might appear that way. However, I not stand for bashing based upon total BS or outdated information. I feel it is totally unprofessional to post inaccurate information when it is known to be wrong or even not known to be accurate.

Personally, I could care less what people use or if they ever buy a detector at all. I just hate to see people bitch about something that they have no idea about and continue to post totally false information. It does get old after a while.

Now, here is a question for you. How many ML PI's have been sold in the last year and how many of those new owners have yet to find their first nugget? Why haven't all of them found a ton of gold by now? Based upon your logic, all should be finding 10 nuggets almost each time out, right? Maybe they got junk machines?

Here is another question for you. When Rob goes out with a friend, he usually finds many more nuggets than who he is with. If you think not, then go back and read all the previous posts. Does this mean, he sold each of them a dud of a detector and kept the best unit for himself. If not, then why didn't they find an equal amount of nuggets, if the detector is the key? How about when he takes a new operator out and they don't match Rob in finds? Did he sell them an inferior unit also so he can find all the gold? I think even you will agree that Rob isn't doing this and just because a bunch of nuggets are found, it doesn't actually display the true merits of the detector as much as it does display the ability of the user.

Sorry to hear about your detector problems. Hopefully, ML will resolve the problem to your satisfaction.

One last note, I am familiar with designs of all types of detectors and what is involved to properly ID a target on a VLF or similar machine. I also know the tricks involved to make it appear to have a detector ID objects deeper than can be physically done with any accuracy. I am also familiar with the technique I call cheating that will allow a detector register a deep object as good when it doesn't really know. Yes, this is really done and it works. It is one way to make one detector appear to work much better than another. I modified an old Tesoro with the technique and gained a couple of inches depth wise without losing much in inaccuracy. So, I know it can be done. The fact is, the physics do not allow for accurately determining a target after a certain depth simply because of all factors involved. Maybe Whites should use the cheating technique and increase their depth capability a decent amount.

Reg

[nuggethunting]

Hello Reg,

I have to agree that the operator has more to do with finding gold than the detector. Over all the years of finding nuggets, I believe I could take a lesser detector out and find more gold than a newbie with a GPX-4000.

Reason, finding thousands of gold nuggets I know what to look for, what ground is better looking, can ID very old placer workings and know the likely spots for gold to hide.

The detector does help a lot, expecially in mineralized areas, but the operator plays the greatest role.

A good operator with a good gold detector can go a long ways.

Take care,

Rob Allison

[Reno Chris]

I also tried to correct some of the BS that Chris has spread for quite some time, which is not true.

Reg, I just dont get why this is all so personal with you. Relax my friend.

Here is a fact for you: A number of people have tried out the GS5 for prospecting and not all of them liked it. Are all of their negative experiences and conclusions about the GS5 invalid BS too? Some folks like this detector a lot, (including you) and I am not saying any of you are wrong, but every person who tried this detector did not fall in love with it.

People have also have varying opinions about the Minelab PI detectors, too. You have stated you didnt like them and why. Should we all declare your expereinces and opinions as "BS" you are spreading around?

I dont think so. Give folks the space to have their own opinions, just as you excect to be given the space to have your own opinions.

well if you or Chris think it is so easy, then feel free to make one.

I merely said that reliable discrimination would be a desirable feature to have. I NEVER said anything that stated it was easy to achieve.

Regardless, who cares what people find and do not find?

People considering purchasing a GS5 genuinely care about the expereinces and successes (or lack of success) of others using the detector, including results both positive and negative.

Whites makes a VLF gold machine and have made them for years. They know quite well what is needed to find gold and the problems involved.

Businesses in every type of industry all across the world spend litterally billions of dollars each year in customer surveys to collect data about what their customers like and dislike about their products, including what customers would like to see in future products. Most of these monies are spent by businesses that are experienced and know what it takes to produce a viable product. Are you saying that all customer surveys and related market research are merely pointless "BS"?

I offered my opinions, and if Whites want to look at them great, and if not, thats fine too. Please note that I did preface my comments in that post with the statement: "I know you are an experienced prospector and I am sure you probably have thought of all these things and more"

Reg - take a dep breath and relax, OK? I really am not the devil in sheep's clothing, honest.

Chris

[JW.]

Chris posted some great pointers and you basically said, what exists is perfectly fine. This maybe true but why are the GP and SD series MLs out selling the GS5 by like 100:1? Why are the Explorers out selling the DFX? Are all these people wrong or does the Minelab actually work better? I think this is the major sticking point at White's, what exists no longer cuts it and the numbers support that. The attitude should be, we need to out perform what is out there, and we need to do it now!!!

Reg,

I don't believe I ever said YOU had an attitude, I was referring to what I would like to see from White's...

In that statement, I was simply trying to explain to you how your statement fits in with all the arguments I have heard that state, "The White's machines are as good if not better for finding stuff as the Minelabs." But then you test a DFX and Explorer side by side, the DFX doesn't even come close... No tricks, no mods, no tweaking and the Explorer will out shoot the DFX by 4", all things being equal (meaning you don't need to tweak to get depth).

This isn't a comparison of machines, it is to show that there is a serious difference between what White's thinks works and what is happening in the real world. So much so that I have lost faith in White's ever coming out with something truly new that beats the pants off of what already exists. And if the M6 is any sign of what White's is willing to produce as 'new' machines, then Minelab and other manufacturers willing to move forward, are simply going to kill them in sales.

Like your example of how White's (I'm guessing) had no idea a PI gold machine would sell over 300 units. Well, they were VERY wrong, and as such the statement just further reinforces my belief that White's just doesn't have the looking forward attitude that drives the innovation of kick butt products.

As I understand it White's has loaned patents to Minelab and vice-versa so really all this is moot. The technology is there for both manufacturers, so the ultimate question is why is there such and performance gap between them?

White's makes a great VLF, but the Eureka Gold is pretty nifty with the 3 frequencies, a feature that would rock on a White's machine, so where is it? Maybe they don't think it is important, I don't know but it WOULD improve the machines ability to find gold, they have the technology, look at the DFX... Add the multi frequencies to the GMT and with the superior ground balancing you could kick the VLF market in the a$$, so?

I'm not saying it is easy, i'm just saying someone is already doing it.

Comparing a newbie with a machine they have never operated to a pro with a familiar machine even if it isn't a performer is like shooting ducks in a barrel, give that pro a machine they have never used and then maybe the playing field is closer to being equal.

But give that pro a VLF in a spot where the gold is 10"+ at 5 grams and I don't care how good they are, the VLF just isn't going to cut it.

The GPX is out performing the earlier models in the hands of pros, they are finding gold where they had thought they had cleaned it all out. So really the performance of the machine does make a difference...

HH

JW

[Reg]

Chris,

It is not personal so don't you take it that way.

However, I feel if one is to criticize a detector, regardless of who makes it, the criticism should be accurate and up to date. Such criticism should also be offered by those who have actually used the detector for a reasonable amount of time, or at least on behalf of them, and have experienced on going problems that haven't been resolved. It is that simple.

You have constantly hammered on the battery problem experienced by Fred Mason when he went to Alaska. Now that happened 2 years ago and the issue was resolved almost immediately after it became known. So, this has been a non issue for two years and you still use it a means of running a detector down you know nothing about. I do have a problem with that. Actually, I would have a problem regardless of who said it and not just you.

You see, I feel people deserve the whole truth about any and all detectors. If there is an incident that has been resolved, then I don't feel it should be an issue. However, ongoing problems are a different matter. So, if there are ongoing problems even Eric needs to be aware of them. Simply have the owners bring the issue forward. I think Eric will be happy to resolve the issue.

You have also stated the ground balance doesn't work as well as the ML's when in fact, it is superior and most people even in OZ who have used it will agree and the ground is a whole lot worse over there.

Why do you continue to say these things when they are not true?

As for all those people who have tried the GS 5 and didn't like it, they have a right to offer their criticism, since they have actually used it. Once again, I feel they need to bring their issue forward if the problem still exists. BTW, there have been quite a few changes to the GS 5 since it was first introduced a couple of years ago and many of them have come from people bringing issues forward..

I fully expect some people to not like the GS 5 or any other detector for that matter. Some people will not like the weight, others may want a shaft mounted unit and others may feel they have to have the deepest seeking detector on the market. All of these are valid reasons if that is what drives them.

Fred did have his problems and I know he felt he couldn't trust the unit. His unit was one of the first to be sold. I can understand Fred's position because of his particular situation. He also had problems with an adapter which didn't help matters. However, even that issue was quickly resolved once it was known. If a person doesn't have confidence in a detector he should get rid of it but he should also give it a little time too. Again, I think this is what Fred did. BTW, Fred's old unit is still going strong. Hopefully, at some point the owner will add their comments.

As for me liking, disliking, or defending the GS 5, let me start out by saying I don't own one. I personally use a much cheaper unit that I have modified to fit my needs. I use it because it is so light and easy to work with since I prefer a shaft mounted one. So, I am not the GS 5 fan you think I am. I have used the unit and I know what it can do. I also know the evolution that has gone on with the GS 5 since it was first introduced.

Just for the record, the GS 5 goes deeper than my unit and the ML goes deeper yet. Does this bother me? Nope, I know I can use mine where ML's don't work and I know it goes deep enough to find most of the gold found on a daily basis. That is all that is important to me. For others that is not enough.

In the mean time, my detector doesn't have good or bad hair days. I don't have to put up with strange warbles, or other noises that are so common that owners will look up to see if there are planes causing it, or even something as strange as alien spacecraft or flying gremlins that are causing the noisy condition of the day. No, I haven't had any problems from sun spots, moon farts, or any other unexplained reasons for even more of the noise problems. So, there is not pssst off canary trying to talk through the headphones like I experienced with my dad's old SD. These types of problems generally are the result of trying to push the sensitivity as far as possible among other things. I have never experienced a day where the noise was so bad I had to quit detecting.

BTW, the GS 5 doesn't suffer from them either and I would expect the new Whites will ignore most of the reasons for PI noise. Also, it is my understanding that the now GPX is much quieter. That is a good thing.

I also prefer a light weight shaft mounted unit and neither the GS 5 nor the ML fit that bill.

So, in simple terms, it isn't a matter of me liking or disliking the GS 5, the ML's or any other detector for that matter. I just prefer people be accurate in their criticism. Try it, you might be surprised by the fact I won't criticize what you post.

As for me, I am always relaxed.

Reg

[Reno Chris]

In the mean time, my detector doesn't have good or bad hair days. I don't have to put up with strange warbles, or other noises that are so common that owners will look up to see if there are planes causing it, or even something as strange as alien spacecraft or flying gremlins that are causing the noisy condition of the day. No, I haven't had any problems from sun spots, moon farts, or any other unexplained reasons for even more of the noise problems.

Rob: How much time have you lost to random EM noise, where it either makes you either stop detecting or has a significant negative affect on your detecting in the last couple years? (and you hunt a good deal in some of the worst areas for EM noise)

Reg -

Hey Reg - my detector doesn’t have bad hair days either. The truth is, here you are doing exactly what you condemn me for doing - You have little experience with the GP series detectors, nor do you know much about how common and widespread (or not) this non-specific EM noise problem really is. You make a huge deal of it all the time, and yet you don’t know how little it really affects the typical Minelab detector user.

Personally, I have had my GP Extreme since 2004, and I have never had a noise problem that caused any loss of detector time - nor has it significantly affected my detecting. In fact it is a very rare occasion when I even notice a small amount of it. I have detected at a number of places in Nevada, northern California and even Alaska and Arizona. Yes, I have had to retune my detector a few times, but that always resolves the problem for me. I think the problem is far more localized than you would admit, and while there are many theoretical causes, air traffic related EM energy is probably the most common actual cause. From reports on the forums, it does appear to be more prevalent in parts of Arizona, especially in and around LSD and the Bradshaws. It seems like the AZ guys do report experiencing it once in a while, but not regularly or all the time. So I am not saying this is never an issue for any GP user at any time, but the truth is that for most GP users its a non-issue, and it certainly not the "big deal" you are trying to make it out to be. Seriously, how big a deal is it if it hasn't cost me one minute of detector time in 3+ years?

I posted this because I feel people need to have the whole truth about these detectors. Also, I just wanted to help you be more accurate in your criticism, as I see you are regularly spreading this "BS" around the 'net......

Have a great evening.

Chris

[Reg]

Chris,

Are you saying the ML's don't have or haven't had problems with noise and people have not had noise so bad they couldn't hunt? Now, that is funnnnnnnnnnny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but I have experienced the ML noise problem either directly indirectly indirectly on about all models of the ML PI's. The only exception is the new one and I haven't been around it enough yet. Fortunately, from what I hear, the problem has been reduced on this latest model.

I suppose you will tell me next you can hunt under power lines with no noise or loss of depth either.

Now, just for clarification for you, I do refer to noise as electrical noise which some call interference. I needed to clarify that so you don't get confused.

Just to clarify to my point and cite another post recently written, you might want to read Montana Bob's post he wrote a while back. Are you saying he doesn't know what he is talking about and the "massive interference problems" doesn't or never existed?

Here is the link;

http://www.nuggethunting.com/forums/index....rence&st=20

just drop down to July7.

The fact is, this ML noise problem is a very common topic on all the prospecting forums. If you do not believe that is true then do a simple search. For you to imply that isn't true doesn't speak well, in my opinion, but you are free to say what you want. It simply reflects on your credibility and not mine.

The point I simply tried to make is noise, electrical noise, or interference (whichever word(s) you chose) is a common complaint well documented on the ML's and it is generally a non issue on other many other PI detectors. Sorry, but this is a fact.

You have a great day too.

Reg

[Reno Chris]

Are you saying the ML's don't have or haven't had problems with noise and people have not had noise so bad they couldn't hunt?

Of course not, and I never said that, but you dont seem to bother reading my posts, so this discussion is a waste of my time. You totally discount negative expereinces of others with the GS5, and totally discount any positive experiences of those who use minelab GP detectors. As a result, its just not possible to have a reasonable discussion. You are welcome to your bias, and I wont try to disturb it any more.

Chris

[montana]

Reg My freind. Yes we do have massive interference in many locations. I can now get rid of it though with the GPX4000. No problem. I believe I stated that we will never be able to run our GPX4000s to the full limits of their capabilities because of all the interference sources in the U.S. We can however adjust the GPX4000 to the point to where we get rid of the interference other than close lightning strikes. Even at this reduced state of tuning I feel confident that it is still operating at a level of sensitivity and depth capability that is beyond any previous Minelabs or other manufacturers PI or any prototype. And yes , we can now run under powerlines with no big problem. I love the fact that you and some others have designed and built PIs on your own with no backing from manufacturers or investors. Be sure to get your hands on a GPX and really give it a good run, like for at least a week. I believe you will come away feeling that any issues you had with previous Minelab models will be gone, other than the discriminator or the ergonomics you mentioned. It may even give you some ideas to incorporate into future detectors you build. Anyone who really learns to run the GPX can't possibly find much to complain about. It's the whole enchilada. OKay, poor discriminator. It's 95% of the enchilada.----Bob

[Mr. Bill]

Hi Rob

Hope you don’t mind me posting on your forum. After reading some of the information here perhaps I can help out, or shed some more confusing info. on it ????

Being the only supplier in North America of the Goldscan 5, I remember all sales.

To clear things up about production of the GS5, Eric Foster personally builds every one of the units by hand. There is no production line like in a manufacturing company, they come out of his shop, one at a time. I say this to answer the “why†there are less GS5’s out there over the Minelabs.

About the battery thing: Extra batteries were always available for purchase, and we had a inexpensive, ($15.), 12 volt inverter charger that was available, to provide in field charging. Anyone that went into the field with a GS5 was offered this option. Some choose to go with it, some didn’t. Battery working time should have been in the 6 to 8 hr. time frame per charge.

Ground balance: I can’t say, nor did I ever discover during my testing, any gold bearing ground that couldn’t be easily ground balanced out. Just don’t understand the ground balance statement I read in one of the post here. Had they been trouble with it I certainly would have been informed about it by the customer.

Coil usage with the GS5: Most Minelab useable coils will work on the GS5 with the exception of Nugget Finder coils above the serial number of 5000. They are wired as a anti phase coil regardless if they have a switch or not.

The ID system: The GS5 will ID using a Mono or a DD type coil. It will ID down to it’s maximum target depth. The nastier the ground, the better the ID.

I know this started as a Whites post, but what I said here most likely will be carried over to the Whites unit. The exception will be at least the battery system. With today’s power sources available I’m sure Whites will go with a lighter, more powerful system. Their lead engineer on the project is Dan G., and he’s right up to speed on the latest PI technology. I doubt that much will slip by his attention. I’m sure you will find Whites unit will be all it should be, and the performance will be right up there with anyone.

If I can offer any information on the Eric Foster Goldscan 5B, please ask. I’ll do my best to answer it.

Have a nice day

Mr. Bill