GPX vs Earlier Models. Sound only

[DOC]

AMD - Obviously you don't know me, or my personality, and the internet is a terrible place to learn about someone. While the written word may serve to convey ideas, it is only the spoken word, along with facial expressions. that can tell you the tone in which the ideas are being conveyed.

I was not challenging you at all. I was coming from the perspective that you said you knew little about metal detecting, but a lot about sound. So I thought perhaps I could help you understand Minelabs by telling you to look at their patents, and also give you a little of their background.

I thought perhaps there might be something in those patents regarding the "sound" question that might be helpful.

I've been a member of this forum for years, most people appreciate any and all information. While I told you how much I appreciated the information you provided, one of your responses to me was. "At the same time I do feel you thought I was trying to outsmart Minelab or something? " So I tried again in a post to compliment you and your response was, "It was also great for me to know for the first time who Bruce Candy is, his brilliance, his scarey smartness, Halcro amps, his technical advancements and what the media talks about him. But what has that really got to do with me?"

Ah. I thought because you were a sound expert Bruce Candy's work might be of interest. I am sorry I am not psychic, I can't determine precisely what will and will not be of interest to people.

In re-reading my first post, I guess I did not clearly convey what my real question was.

I have a tendency to think outloud, and try to reduce that to writing when my mind is flooded with thoughts and sometimes putting them to paper does not make them more precise.

What I was trying to get across, is that prior to the "SOUND" being modified, adjusted, gated, attenuated, etc. and made audible to the human ear; an electronic signal has to be generated to be manipulated into an audible sound.

If an electronic signal is generated that is very noisey, via ground mineralization, or whatever cause, then a lot more "SOUND" modifications have to be made to quiet that down.

The point I was making is that if the electronic processing of the signal is such that noise has been filtered and balanced and modified by circuitry so that it is basically a clean electronic signal relatively free of noise is generated, then I would speculate that less "SOUND" modification is necessary to produce an audible response that is "QUIET."

It is all of that pre-processing, before we get to the "SOUND" stage where I believe Minelab's technology reigns supreme.

To put it another way, maybe I want to produce an audible sound that the human ear interprets as a Cello. Now I could start off by using a whislte and record that sound. That is my signal. Now I have to process the sound of a whistle and via "SOUND" manipulation, makie it sound like a Cello. I would imagine that would take a lot of manipulation, ehancement, etc. to modify that signal and turn it into a Cello sound.

BUT, what if I wanted to produce a sound of a Cello, but my starting signal was a recording of a violin. Would it not take much less sound manipulation to make a violin sound like a cello than it would to make a whistle sound like a cello?

So the point I am trying to make is I THINK, Minelab's advantage is the signal they produce before they ever get to the modifying the sound stage. Granted they probably do what they can at the sound stage to enhance the audible reponse, but don't you think the pre-sound processing stage is important? Isn't it more important to generate the frequency of a violin, rather than a whistle before you try to modify it to make it sound like a CELLO.

I think trying to make a metal detector sound quiet by manipulation of sound only, is the reason why some detectors do not work as well. I'm not challenging you, I am asking for your opinion on this theory.

Take care!

Doc

[amdmakki]

DOC, I agree with you 200%. That was an excellent theory and one I truly believe in. In the Post Production of the Audio world, we too have a company which can be compared to Minelab. Its an American company called AVID (Digidesign, Protools), which are in my opinion the best of the best when it comes to Audio.( JP and Flak would also be familiar with what I'm refering to)

Now I do feel we are in the same page and understand each other. I normally hate a "VS" Subject when it comes between a company VS company. Thank god here we are talking about Minelab VS Minelab, which i consider and should only be called comparison more than "VS". The reason for me hating Company vs Company is because every company has its own Advantage. In my Audio studio I sometimes buy the cheapest machine because it does some certain job better than the best machine or software out there. As lucky as I am that a Studio would normally have the space for me to that, but when it comes to detecting, its hard because how much a human can carry is what he only has.

When any Band, Musicians or Singers come to my studio. I always make it clear to them by saying.

" If your Bad, I might make you Good. If your Good, I'll make you Better. If your Better than most, I'll make you the Best, but never expect to skip from Bad to Best even if the best Music producer or Audio Engineer is present"

You will have to turn that saying to your imagination of Metal Detecting to suit you. So yes I do agree with you 200% that the source is what is more important than anything DOC, and minelab obviously is better than any source. Thats why I mentioned you can't give me a Whites TDI and expect it to turn to a GPX by sound, cuz the problem is from the source. Here on the other hand we are talking about a good source already like the Minelab SD series, which i think most agree that it is still a good machine. So since the real question was: Can you make it better and not touching any of the Electronic Technolgy? I'd say yes.

My next posts will be about How Pitch and Multiband Frequency can also play a big role in Sound, but this really depends more and more to the electronic recieving like you mentioned DOC. I think if the earlier post of the Noise Gate and Limiter depend only 20% on the recieving, the new topics would actually depend 100% from the source.

I will also show you guys how all these would look in Analog if you wanted to carry it with you in any of the SD's or GP's Why I laugh is because you can't have a battery to run these machines, you will actually need a generator. At the same time, how they would look in Digital or Software Logic and can be carried in a small Control Box.

Untill Then

P.S Also since the last recieving point is the Human Ear before the Brain functions. You need to know how it works and capable of. You might have seen in the movies how dogs respond to some silent whistle? Well its not that its silent, its because us Humans can't hear that Frequency. It might be loud as a Concert amp through the best Speakers, but we still won't hear it.

Edited November 29, 2009 by AMD

[amdmakki]

Montana, rexb, Thanks for the advice. You don't understand how much i'm getting more excited. I'm going update you on how i'm narrowing my choices in finding my first detector. I will need every ones's help in this. I won't bug you with which one is better. I will just narrow it down according to Options vs Budget. e.g if one would cost $1000 more vs its options, does it deserve it for what I need. As for now forget the about the GPX 4500, even if you tell me it could fly, I can't get it At the same time i will have to forget about the old SD's, not that they are not good. I just think everything in the worl has a life depreciation, so I wouldn't really know how much it was used, at the same time not using a machine also has a disadvantage.

So being safer is better than sorry. For now I'll try to keep it between SD2100V2, SD2200V2, GP Extreme, GP 3000, GP3500 only.

I will keep on updating you guys with what i find. I know it would be easier to compare it when I tell you a price vs its options. For instance I'm worried if a new Beginner like me wouldn't know how to balance Ground. So does that mean i should forget about the SD2100V2 since there is no Auto. Also depending on the review I read by JP that the Auto should not be used anyways in all prior machines to the GP3500 as there was no tracking options.

Honestly this is the only thing I'm worried about. I'm the kind of guy who would fiddle with a knob the whole time untill i screw it up instead of just leaving it alone.

Any advance advice would also be appreciated.

Edited November 29, 2009 by AMD

[Dakota Slim]

I have a GP Extreme and always dig everything because I have a hard time distinguishing an oooeee from an eeeooo. I'd like to have the sound refined to the point where there is a slight threshold and when the gate opens the oooeee is replaced by an audible bell or a "Dig Here!".

[grubstake]

AMD, the 2200sd and V2 both have auto ground balance, the 2100 is manual. Heres some gold that was found with 2200sd's. Grubstake

And as far as holding there value, most used 2200sd's are going from say $1200.00 to 1500.00 depending on what you get with them. Still a great detector.

[amdmakki]

Grubsatke i can't wait to have pics like these in the forum from hopefully what i would find (hopefully soon to break the ice) but value is not what I meant, more to price that i can afford and if i need to push it a bit from what my earlier budget was depending to an option that would actually benefit me.

God , I don't even know if you'll understand what I'm saying I don't understand it, but hope you try to. Its hard to put in words. Don't forget English is my second language.

Its also more of lifetime of the machine and the year it was produced even if it wasn't used. Every thing has a lifetime. You could sit in your bed for 4 years and not move to only find you can't move easy again, and you could be moving for the next four years and find age beating you down.

I know this is a stupid example but the only thing that came to mind. So all i want to do is better safe than sorry towards year of production too. (used not used doesn't matter) My most worry if me as a beginner will need Auto stuff to start with and with time and learning the machine, later I can fine tune, or should i just forget Auto stuff and depend on your manual smartness, which will cause me to fiddle with that knob untill i screw it up.

[grubstake]

I've taken people that have never in there life had a detector of any kind in there hands, and had them running the detector, like they had know it for years. Not that hard to do, not that hard to learn, the hardest part is getting the coil over the gold, to do that, you have to be in a gold bearing area. And know what to look for as far as indicators. Anyone can run a pick and shovel. And as far as the life of the detector, it depends on how it was taken care of by who ever owned it in the past. We have cars here that still run like they are brand new, but are 90 years old or older. Its a matter of perspective. If you think it is worn out, and don't have the right mind set, it doen't matter. You won't find gold, even if its brand new out of the box, you have to learn your detector, have the confidents that your going to find gold, and you will. Grubstake

[amdmakki]

The highest bid for this is $2150 for now. I can go upto 2300 but the only problem is the seller doesn't ship to any countries except USA, Australlia, UK or Canada.

If anyone trust worthy can recieve it in the USA for me and then ship it to me at my cost. Then i would go ahead with the bid. Problem is only about 10 mins is left. Anyone?

USA people only as it would cost me double if any other country

Edited November 29, 2009 by AMD

[amdmakki]

Forgot to put the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[grubstake]

Looks like you missed that one. Too bad, but there will be others. Grubstake

[amdmakki]

Don't worry about it. was sold for 2445 could have beat the price but $ 50 shipping to US + shipping to Dubai, would come close to the same price as this one I'm interested in http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

tell me what you think.

[grubstake]

Well he says he ship it to your area, not a bad deal. watch it and start your biding in the last 10 minutes of the time. Thats your call. Grubstake Me I never buy from ebay, to easy to get scamed. But I know lots of people that do buy on ebay and it mostly turns out good.

[amdmakki]

Grubstake, this is my first time on Ebay too ( I just never believed in this stuff) This would actually be my first buy ever, if I win. The free shipping is what caught my mind, but he also has Buy it now, at the end it also has a paypal security. So should i just go for the Buy it now, or wait against these one's I'm also watching:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT ( I predict this would go up to $1900-2100)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI..e=STRK:MEWAX:IT ( This one is without battery charger and head phones but i wouldn't worry about that as the American charger would be 120v, no use to me and head phones is no big deal) That and I was planning to buy the poket rocket package any ways after I saw Rob's info on that. ( that and only if Auto ground is not much of a big deal as its a GP3000)

tell me what you think? ( how many times did i mention "that"

P.S I know I could be increasing prices by just talking here, but really don't care as I have a tight budget towards anything I buy. So anyone here who are owners of those machines, dont you go increasing the price

[grubstake]

Be it far from me to tell another man how to spend his money, but the buy now deal is pretty good, I'd jump on it. Grubstake

With the 3000 .you will prob. a couple of short cords for back up, you can get them from Rob, either a wallby DD or a Goldstaker 17x11 mono. Grubstake Forgot Blackwidow headphones, lifetime waranty, and they are the best.

[IronMike]

Don't forget the DD Joey to make yourself a killer machine.

Micheal

[amdmakki]

Grubstake, Done. I bought it. lets hope its no Scam. One more thing about international Pay Pal is that I found they charge you $100 more than what my Mastercard from the country issued charge. People choosing to pay by Credit Card through Pay Pal intenationally, check if you get a better rate from your bank? You could add that to the the expense of your new coil. (they give that option when you pay for it)

Talking about Coils and other stuff that I need before I go to the Sudan? What enhancements or other should I get. For one I'm convinced with the Pocket rocket. 2. I need to get me some different Coils. what else and what kind of coils?

Grubstake, thank you for being available when I needed advice. I did not wait for a second after your post. I won't hold you responsible for any of my choice, but looking at all the alternatives you were Right on. I just saw a an old SD 2000 selling for $1700 and a SD2100V2 selling for $2030. Ebay just makes you wonder if these people know what their doing?

Untill I get the package, I'll feel comfortable, but for now I did the "Buy it Now" and paid for it right away. Deal is done, hope he holds his end of the deal.

Thanks again Grubstake. My First detector ( before getting too excited I have to wait 6-10 days)

[grubstake]

Congrats. on the deal, I hope you get it, and along with buying a pocket rocket battery system from ROb, I would also suggest you get a large eliptical DD coil like a dd goldstalker and a good Detec sound inhancer and short cords, a couple of them for back up, because if you do have a problem, most times its a broken power cord. And sice you are so far away, you need one or two on hand, so you don't lose any detecting time. All can be had on this forum from ROB, make sure he knows you need the 4 pin cords for the3000. You might like a anti-interference coil too, or salt coil as they use to be called. Good luck, I hope to see some great gold picture posted here as soon as you get out to the gold fields. Grubstake

Just pm Rob or call him, thats Rob Allison aka nuggethunting

[amdmakki]

Its a 3500 if that makes any difference to the pins. Thanks again. I did not get the GP 3000, i went for the first choice earlier 3500.

Edited November 29, 2009 by AMD

[grubstake]

No, its still a 4 pin power cord, they din't go to 5 pins until the 4000. Grubstake

[rexb]

So, one more piece of advice since you're out in their in a country without a minelab service shop, never unscrew the power cord to the battery while the power is on, and also check it a few times every time out in the field to make sure it is not loosening up and coming unscrewed on it's own. I had that happen to me twice and each time it blew out the detector, not fun to have happen when you're on a trip. Minelab will repair it for you, but prevention is always best. This happened with a GP3000 and I would imagine a similar thing could happen with a GP3500.

[amdmakki]

I have a GP Extreme and always dig everything because I have a hard time distinguishing an oooeee from an eeeooo. I'd like to have the sound refined to the point where there is a slight threshold and when the gate opens the oooeee is replaced by an audible bell or a "Dig Here!".

I like how you made that sound and the "Dig Here". In the next topic about Pitch, I'll just give a general Idea why the ear sometimes finds it easier to distinguish Pitch rather than increase in gain.

[montana]

AMD. Good choice on a detector. Your concern about Ground ballancing is solved . Simply push the green button , move the coil up and down a few times and the detector does it for you. It's a very simple detector to learn with excellant audio qualities. No booster is needed while using headphones.----Bob

[grubstake]

That depends,BOB. If his hearing is anything like mine, pondmn, or sandtrap, a sound enhancer is nice, because I find the 3500 and below dosn't have enogh volume for me, And if its an area where the wind blows alot, it helps for sure. And he might want the one that will drive a speaker, Personal choise of course. Grubstake

[Gold Seeker]

Grubstake, Done. I bought it. lets hope its no Scam. One more thing about international Pay Pal is that I found they charge you $100 more than what my Mastercard from the country issued charge. People choosing to pay by Credit Card through Pay Pal intenationally, check if you get a better rate from your bank? You could add that to the the expense of your new coil. (they give that option when you pay for it)

Talking about Coils and other stuff that I need before I go to the Sudan? What enhancements or other should I get. For one I'm convinced with the Pocket rocket. 2. I need to get me some different Coils. what else and what kind of coils?

Grubstake, thank you for being available when I needed advice. I did not wait for a second after your post. I won't hold you responsible for any of my choice, but looking at all the alternatives you were Right on. I just saw a an old SD 2000 selling for $1700 and a SD2100V2 selling for $2030. Ebay just makes you wonder if these people know what their doing?

Untill I get the package, I'll feel comfortable, but for now I did the "Buy it Now" and paid for it right away. Deal is done, hope he holds his end of the deal.

Thanks again Grubstake. My First detector ( before getting too excited I have to wait 6-10 days)

AMD,

Welcome to the forum!!

Congratulation on your first detector!!

I have been following your posts with great interest, I know nothing about everything you have posted as far as sound tech goes, but I'm very intrigued with all the info you have posted and the response from others!!

About eBay and Pay Pal, I do eBay often and always use Pay Pal.

I would suggest that you check and see if your purchase is covered by Pay Pal's Buyer's Protection Program, if you are then I wouldn't worry to much about a fraudulent sale, if you have any problems just make sure you contact Pay Pal within the Buyer's Protection Program's timeframe, Pay Pal is very good in my experiance with protecting their users.

I also can't wait to see some pictures of what you may find out in the goldfields of Sudan!!!

Good Luck!!

Skip

[amdmakki]

Thanks all. Yeah Skip Pay Pal secured. Guess thats less worrying