Friday Push

[Dakota Slim]

Geeze. From reading some of these posts, you'd think all hell broke loose up there.

I wasn't there and was obviously joking about Shep bringing the elephant.

Is anybody really upset that the Outdoor Channel came and filmed for a couple hours???

[nuggethunting]

Hello All,

Well there is no reason for some to get touchy. I know some "Paid" Members were upset since they paid $350 to hunt the pushes and pretty much got ran off of push 2 by a crowd of "Non-Members." I know the filming was a great thing for the club, but a lot of promised never got met. Many of the club members thought they would get some picture time, but come to find out it was only a few selected from the GPAA/LDMA.

The reason they contacted me was the fact they know I'm very close with Elly and all the Board Members of the 24K club. It's my responsibility as a club board member to find solutions.

As for the clown, I won't even comment!

I've done a lot for this club since it started. I hope it continues to be one of the best clubs in Arizona.

Take care,

Rob Allison

[Reg]

Hi Mike,

How in the heck are you? Hope all is well.

The Lobo Tony P had did have some unique features that made it one of a kind. It did work well also.

Now, as for the situation with the other PI and it chocking on a nugget, I wasn't there so I can't tell you what happened. I can say that if the detector is not set up correctly that can happen. My guess is something like that was the primary reason for the problem.

What size nugget was it? Also, what size coil was being used? That info will tell me a lot as to what might have happened.

BTW, I didn't have much if anything to do with the design of that particular detector, but I am very familiar with the design and I know its weaknesses and strengths. Unless this particular nugget was right at the 1/4 oz size, I can only think of a couple of reasons the nugget didn't display a decent signal. One reason would be the coil was too large and the delay needed to be turned back for the coil to work properly. The other reason was the delay was adjusted incorrectly. There is a third reason and that would be there was something wrong with the detector, but that is unlikely since they are generally quality built units.

Now, on this particular detector, one certain size nugget will display a weak signal but that size falls in a very narrow range. The reason for this signal loss has to do with the ground balancing circuitry and how it is done. In the case of a particular size nugget, it will disappear through a certain depth range.

BTW. your ML suffers the same fate of "ignoring" certain size nuggets. You might want to read the discussions on the ProspectinginOZ forum about the test of the new 4000 and how one nugget that couldn't be seen at one depth but was detected at another. This happened when in the "smooth" mode, I believe. As I understand it, several people witnessed it and it happened on different detectors that were the same model.

Now, is this a flaw in the detector? I would rather refer to it as a quirk that can happen when the typical technique in ground balancing is used. I suspect it happens for the same reason it happened on the other detector.

Now, as for the Pulse Devil, I haven't had much to do with the design of that one either, but do know a little more about it. Dave Emery and I have traded emails for several years now so I have a pretty good idea of what he is doing in this unit.

One of the reasons for requesting the Pulse Devil be tested more publicly and by the designer is to let people see what it can do or cannot do when it is adjusted properly. Also, it will give the opportunity for people to see how the controls affect the operations of the detector and how to set the unit up for what you want it to do. In my opinion, the best person to set one up is the designer. He knows the controls the best.

BTW, Dave has addressed the problem of certain nuggets that display a very poor response and the depth loss that occurs with them.

Hopefully, Dave can get what needs to be done and have it ready in time. I will keep Elly posted as to whether all is a go or not as we approach the target date.

Reg

[nuggethunting]

Hello Reg,

I have to say I haven't found the same results as some of the Aussie's have in the "Smooth" mode. When I first started reading those posts I was a bit concerned and started my own tests here in Arizona. I have yet to find a nugget I can't find at any depth within detector range. I have tried nuggets of different shapes, sizes and character and have hit them all.

I'm wondering if the soil conditions in Australia might play a role in "not finding certain nuggets?"

I've talked with several guys that are very successful here in Arizona with the Minelab GPX-4000 and they also agree they haven't seen any "blind spots." However, I have read all the posts that claim there is one.

When it comes to very porous nuggets, I do believe the Minelab struggle on them. My guess is the fact the PI like more solid massive type nuggets. The Minelab PI's really like the sluggy and flat type gold.

Talk with you soon,

Rob Allison

[Reg]

Hi Rob,

I have not doubt as to the fact the guys in OZ happened upon to a "hole" in the detection zone of the new ML. I think I have it figured out why it occurs where it does and yes, the ground conditions could have a lot do do with it. It isn't so much the conditions as it is the ground canceling setting established by the detector as to what happens and when.

Now, my guess is the "hole" in the detection zone is very narrow and the guys in OZ were fortunate enough to just happen to find it. Otherwise it could have gone unnoticed for quite some time.

Does the hole exist here in the US? I am sure it does, but it is going to take a few of the right size nuggets to find it. Like the hole that occurs on smaller nuggets on earlier SD units, the nuggets that are missed fall in a very narrow zone and that zone is based upon several factors including size, weight, and characteristics. Change any of them just a little and the problem seems to disappear.

This hole has been there for some time and has changed through the different models. What surprised me was how few knew or even know it exists today. I fist found it several years ago when testing my dad's SD 2100. That particular model followed the characteristics of another detector I was testing. Now, I have seem more and more discussions about this condition but most has been posted on OZ forums.

Ok, for the non believers, I am sure you have noticed or at least read that small gold will normally generate a "wee-woo" type signal and a large piece of gold will cause a "woo-wee" type. Just to understand the wee-woo and the woo-wee, the first part of the signal is what happens as the result of the target. The second half is the result of the circuitry involved. Pass any signal through a high pass filter and you will get a double response, with half of it positive and the other half negative.

Ok, lets disregard the second of each signal for a moment. If we do, we have small gold creating a positive wee signal and large gold causing a negative woo response. Now comes the common sense 101. What happens to the signal right at the crossover size? If it is too big for a wee and too small for a woo, what happens? If you guess there would be no signal you are right. Sorry, but it can't happen any other way.

Reg

[Reg]

Hi Dakota,

What!!! Shep didn't bring the elephant? Why not?

Now as for people getting upset because a filming crew was there for a couple of hours, yes that happened.

Rob mentions members pay $350 per year to hunt the club claims. For that money, they have the privlege of hunting some of the best gold country in AZ. To top that off, Elly provides a service of having a dozer push some of the ground in designated areas, thus opening up new potential gold. This occurs several times a year.

I assure you, anyone who hunts for gold will spend a whole lot more for gas just finding a place to hunt and in most cases will not find as much as they will on the 24K claims. To make matters worse, since the price of gold has risen, most key areas are now under claim so hunting legally is becoming more and more difficult.

Now as a general policy, only club members are allowed to hunt the fresh pushes. In this case, the filming crew, or parts of them were allowed to hunt one area that was pushed for the filming and they were only allowed to hunt for a brief time. Should people get upset over this? Personally, I do not think so, but that is my opinion. Considering the fact people can hunt the club claims all year long and have the privlege of new ground opened up by pushes several times a year, makes the club worth while, in my opinion.

As for the pushes in general, each push has produced gold, some large, some small. Now, it is just a matter of time before they hit a nice pocket and things really get hopping. I know this can happen because one llittle hill just south of push 2 was dozed a few years ago and it produced one large bunch of nuggets. Heck, I didn't get there for a week and still found a nice 1/4 oz nugget.

Now, Rob mentioned "but a lot of promised never got met. Many of the club members thought they would get some picture time, but come to find out it was only a few selected from the GPAA/LDMA."

Now, I don't know who made the promises but I doubt it was Elly. I know she was hoping the club members would be part of the filming production, but, as I understand it, the final decision was not hers to make.

I think the point that was made is if Elly thinks something will benefit the club in the long run, she certainly has the right to make that decision. She is certainly at the age where she doesn't need to be publicallly hassled or publically criticized for her decisions.

Were the previous posts in jest as some have implied. In my opinion, the answer is no and I know Elly didn't take it as a joke either. People were apparently upset and elected to post their opinions on this forum rather than discuss their concerns privately with her.

One has to remember, this is her club and members are just that, members. It is sort of like renting a motel room. You have privleges but don't have the right to tell the motel owner how to run his business. At some motels, they have complimentary donuts and coffe ready in the morning, but that doesn't mean you have the right to demand them if they are not there. If you feel the motel has shorted you because no donuts were supplied, you have the right to go to a different motel.

Reg

[GoldMember]

Clown suits & buffoons not well received by Prospectors?

(sniffle!)

-GoldMember

Quite the buffoon, thanks!

[AZNuggetBob]

I decided to remove.

AzNuggetBob

[Guest Bunk]

I thought it was a great time! I even stayed an extra day. The film crew got me finding my first nugget and interviewed me.

After watching some of those GPAA/LDMA people, most of them did not look like they knew doodoo from wild honey about hunting nuggets at Rich Hill. They were no threat.

I just want to say THANKS, to Elly for what I think is a GREAT club!!

Bunk

[Guest cop614]

A LITTLE INFO ON FIR PUSH { I WAS THERE ]

FILM CREW INTERVIEWED AND FILMED 4-24K MEMBERS 1=GPAA MEMBER

GPAA MEMBERS WERE ON PUSH 2 FOR 2HRS AND ABOUT 18 MINS

HAS FOR THE SO CALLED CLOWN [ NOT HAVING A CLOWN OUTFIT ON ]

WAS A 24K MEMBER PLAYING A JOKE ON ELLY AND WAS ONLY THERE FOR THAT REASON

IF YOUR HAVING TROUBLE WITH THINGS THAT HAPPENED AT FRI PUSH CALL ELLY OR A BOARD MEMBER THAT WAS THERE AND GET THE REAL STORY

THINGS DID NOT GO AS PLANED BUT WE HAVE A GREAT CLUB LETS WORK IT OUT THE RIGHT WAY AND GO ON

THANKS TO ALL THAT UNDERSTAND

JIM WADDILL

24 K BOARD MEMBER

[Reg]

AZnuggetbob,

The only members being treated like cattle are those mooing.

Reg

[scorpion]

Reg,

Has Dave announced a MSRP or street price for the Pulse Devil and has he firmed up on a date when he is going to be shipping it out to his distributers?

Thanks

Karl

[AZNuggetBob]

I decided to remove.

AzNuggetBob

[Reg]

Hi Karl,

To be honest, Dave and I generally discuss the technical aspects of the detector and not the price or what is involved in setting it. So, I can't even give you a general price as of yet.

As far as I know, Dave has not indicated a specific price as of yet to anyone else either because of the latest key change which consists of eliminating a bunch of mechanical potentiometers used to set the various features and replacing them with electronic controls that are set with a single control and a LCD screen. This may not sound like much of a change, but it is a huge modification and is taking longer than expected to program the microprocessor used to adjust the electronic controls.

I am hoping he will have a couple of working models of the latest design ready by the March 10 date and, hopefully, will have more details as to the final price and production schedules at that time. That is the plan right now.

So, in a nutshell, I can't give you any more details at this time because I do not have any to give.

Most of the specifics should show up on the prospectinginoz forum shortly. At least, that is the latest word I have been given.

Sorry I can't provide more info.

Reg

[Dutchman]

Reg

How is it that you have improved discrimination on the PI, without sacraficing depth?

[scorpion]

Hi Reg,

Thanks for the reply! Not sure if I'll be back in the area on March 10th. I should be starting a new job in March and won't have any vacation time built up. But if they pay me more than I am getting now I might try to squeeze a trip in by flying out and renting a car.

I'll know more tomorrow!

Dave has an interesting approach and has worked on his PD for quite some time.

Have a great day!

Regards

Karl

[Reg]

Hi Dutchman,

First, I need to clear things up a bit. It is Dave Emery who has developed a new discriminating PI and not me. He is the one who has put in the hundreds and hundreds of hours pouring over previous designs and his own new ones trying to find what he feels is the ideal design and then developing and perfecting that design.

Now, how is it his unit can discriminate deeper and not lose depth? The reason for this is he uses some rather unique techniques that are totally different from any other PI being built today. I am sorry but I can't go into much more detail than that at this time except to repeat a few things that have already been posted. As an example, he can sample much sooner because of the design of the coil. This in itself will allow for an increase in sensitivity which results in greater depth. His coil design is such the coil cable doesn't need to be tied down nearly as well as other PI's because of the electronics inside the coil itself.

So, the specially designed coils do allow his design to work differently. As such, the Pulse Devil detector is quite different from the coil up.

Dave has posted some interesting facts about the PD on the OZ forum and will be posting more. Once the unit is out for testing, more information will be available. As it is, more will be posted on this and other forums here in the US.

Now, because there are dramatic differences and various claims made about the abilities of the PD, there are many skeptics as to whether the unit will work. Also, because one of the key reasons for the design is to have a PI that discriminates, thus making it easier to hunt in trashy areas, I was hoping it could be tested in gold producing type country here in the US and in front of other nugget hunting prospectors. Since I am familiar with the Rich Hill area and there are generally always a few hunters around that area, I felt it would be an ideal place for Dave to try it. That is why I contacted Elly and asked if she was interested in having the unit tested there. She thought it would be great for the members to be the first to see it in operations and as such, we began making plans to have the new PI introduced on the 24K club as an exclusive.

Elly and I thought providing the club members with the opportunity to be the first to see the new unit would excite them and make them feel privileged. Unfortunately, that is what she also felt about having the 24K club filmed also and look how that turned out.

To be honest, I feel it is a privilege also, and I would think most of the members would be excited also, but there has been almost total silence on the topic.

Now the one thing I do not want to do is to have another controversial situation that can have a negative on Elly and her health so that is why I wrote what I did previously on this thread. To be honest, a lot of work and planning have gone into making this introduction happen and the two key people involved, both Elly and Dave do not need any more stress than both are feeling right now.

Now, on a different note, Dave feels the worst conditions are found in OZ and that is why he wants the initial units to be sent there for testing, so they should be getting them first. Personally, I am hoping there are no more delays that will interfere with the March 10 date. Since that is less than a month away, things are getting tense.

Reg

[Reg]

Hi Karl,

I hope the new job works out for the best.

Now, as for flying out for the March 10 date, I do need to say that date hinges on the completion or the design of the Pulse Devil being far enough along that a couple of working models will be available by the target date. Right now, that is the plan but there is no absolute guarantee all will go as planned.

The bottom line is this, the PD is still being programmed and until that is completed, it will not be available for testing. So, there are no absolute promises the March 10 date is a firm date.

Right now, we are hoping all will be done and the PD will be available by the March 10 date, but there could be something happen that may stall things. I am hoping that doesn't happen because I need a certain amount of time to change my vacation also and my window of time that I can change my vacation is closing fast.

To be honest Karl, I would hate to see you make plans to fly out and then something happen the would stall the introduction.

Now, once I get confirmation from Dave that he is confident he will meet the date, I will post that information.

I hope this helps.

Reg

[Skipperbill]

Reg,

I, for one, am very excited about the possibility of being one of the first to see the PD in action. It would be a great privilege to do so and I hope it all works out so that it can happen. Of course I Enjoyed the guy "clowning around" on Friday, although there was no clown suite as has been reported, and didn't even know there was a controversy until I got home and looked at this forum so maybe it's just me. Elly is a great lady and my wife and I felt close to her the first time we met. Elly has our full support in whatever decision she makes.

Bill

[scorpion]

Thanks Reg,

Looks like to potential new job is on hold. The company froze the position to re-evaluate their needs.

I now have to sit down with my wife and remap if I'm coming out for this weekend.

It is amazing how fast plans change!

I understand about the tentativeness of the March 10th date.

Do keep me posted I'd like to see the Pluse Devil in action.

Do you have any information regarding the size of aluminum blocks to use as test targets instead of actual gold nuggets? I like to set up and test when I'm out in the field to better understand my 3000 and how the mineralization is affecting my ability to hear the target. i keep trying to train my ears and brain to pickup on those very subtle sounds?

Appreciate the help!

Regards

Karl

[Reg]

Hi Karl,

Here is a link to the conductivity chart.

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm

Now, I have used lead, the common coin the nickel and aluminum and brass as test targets.

If I were to use aluminum to determine the depth capabilities or how a detector might react, I would select the size of the aluminum to be the determining factor as to the size of gold I were looking for. In other words, sort of select the size of aluminum equal to the size of desired gold.

I will try to post more later on this subject.

Reg

[scorpion]

Thanks Reg!

I was hoping that the correlation of the aluminum target to the gold target was in the ballpark of being 1:1 in reference to size. I too have used the lead and coin method! Gets us in the "good enough for government range"! lol

Thanks again!

Karl

[Reg]

Hi Karl,

One of the reasons I don't worry so much about finding something as close to gold as possible to use as a test device is simply because gold hasn't read the same books we have.

What do I mean by that, well, Eric Foster posted some interesting information quite some time back about how gold and the ability to detect it changes as the alloy characteristics change. Add silver to gold and the ability to detect the gold is reduced. If I remember correctly, this reduction or amount of reduction increases as the percentage of silver increases. This loss in the ability to detect it continues to we get to about the 50% range of gold to silver and then starts back up, as I remember.

So, the bottom line is this, you could have two pieces of gold identical in size and have one that is easier to detect than the other simple because of the chemical composition.

Now, to compound matters, you can have two pieces of gold having the same chemistry but different surface characteristics and those two could have dramatic differences as to the maximum depth of detection. So, Rob is right, pourous gold is harder to detect than a solid slug.

You can have a heavy gold specimen containing several ounces that may not be detectable that deep simply because the effective surface area and thickness of the gold is much smaller.

Quite some time back, John Blennert posted some information about "invisible nuggets" on the nuggetshooter forum. He even posted some pics of some of the larger nuggets the ML PI couldn't detect. Well, a lot of people didn't believe it until they saw it themselves and even then some thought there was a trick to it.

The fact is, the particular gold was quite unique when looked at with a loupe. To the casual eye, the gold looked reasonably solid and quite large. Under a magnifiying glass, one could see the gold looked more like a fine micro whisker type structured plating rather than a solid piece. So, to a metal detector, the gold looked more like a bunch of very little pieces rather than one larger piece.

Anyone who has panned or drywashed an ounce of very small gold can make a quick check with a metal detector as to how the ounce of small gold compares to a one ounce slug. The difference is dramatic to say the least. Even though the quantity is the same, it is the effective continuous surface area that makes the big difference.

Does just the thickness of the gold have an effect? Yep and this shows up on VLF's as well as PI's. As the gold becomes thinner, it takes a VLF with a higher operating frequency to detect it. On a PI, it takes a shorter delay before sampling. What does this mean? Well, you could have a nice super thin splatter of gold the size of a quarter that may only give a whimper of a signal, depending upon the detector used.

Now, given the information above, it should be obvious that we can have several different 1/4 oz nuggets that have a range of detection that can vary more than 50% just because of the specific characteristic differences. Add in the fact that on some models of PI's, this particular size of gold can effectively have the same delay as the ground minerals, and as such, can be canceled right along with the ground signal, and now, you can see why thee can be so many strange things happen that don't make sense to the casual observer or the unsuspecting prospector. Since most nuggets found are 1/4 oz or less, it can become more obvious as to why we can run into wide ranges of signal differences from similar weighted gold objects.

I hope this helps a little in understanding some of the things people can run into including why some nuggets do not respond like we think they should. Now, hopefully, this information will help one understand why some gold with an "attitude" doesn't want to be detected.

Reg

[Reg]

Hi Skipperbill,

Thanks for the post expressing your desire to see the Pulse Devil in operation. Because of its uniqueness, there has been quite a bit of info posted on several forums ranging from those mainly aimed at coin hunting to water hunting, and of course, nugget hunting. All have expressed the desire to see this new detector as soon as possible.

Almost all want it tested in their area and a couple of posts expressed dismay that the PD was going to be sent to OZ first.

Now, I can understand Dave's desire to have it tested first in OZ. Since their ground is the worst by far, if ti works there, it should work anywhere.

I expressed to Dave the ground around Rich Hill is a good test here in the US and would be an ideal area for a proving grounds. I was very pleased he was willing to do that.

Many people do not know this but the Pulse Devil design and production is basically a one man company and Dave is that company. It is remarkable he is able to do this by himself.

Lets hope the target date is met and we all get to see it in action. Yes, it will be a first for me also.

Reg

[Guest Mike C...]

Hi Reg-I hope this new PI works out-good to hear from you and glad your still chasen the yellow stuff-maybe our paths will cross again in the gold feilds some where-Take care-Mike C...