The Discriminating PI

[Reg]

Hi All,

I think many people are waiting to see how the new discriminating PI's stack up depth wise when compared to the competition, but I look at the concept from a totally different perspective.

Why do I have a different outlook? Easy, I am older than dirt and have been using detectors since the early BFO days. I have seen the evolution to the fantastic TR and the DD coil and then to the ultimate, the VLF.

When the first VLF came out, owners were digging objects deeper than TR owners could think about. Unfortunately, this advantage had its drawbacks in the fact nails and bottle caps were common objects to be uncovered. The crude TR type discrimination mated to the VLF worked poorly at best but was better than nothing.

What really changed the detector market and made detecting much more fun was the introduction of the VLF motion discriminating detectors. The idea you didn't have to dig every nail, bottle cap, or other piece of trash was a pure delight. The fact that the motion machines didn't get quite the depth of the older VLF's was a non issue.

Now, if we fast forward to today, we have seen a somewhat similar evolution in PI's, where some basic form of discrimination is available today, but no true discrimination. Eric Foster's GS 5 comes as close as any, but isn't perfect.

So, for me, a true discriminating PI will be a major advancement, regardless of depth comparisons. The reason is simple, many and in some areas, most of the ground has been gone over and over with PI's. About the only areas in some locations that haven't been beat to death are those that have so much trash, people simply give up after a short time. At least, I do and I have tried some of these areas several times.

I remember one area in the King Tut area, I spent several hours raking the trash away and was rewarded with one small nugget. Boy, would I have loved a good discriminating PI at that site.

So for me, depth superiority isn't an issue. As long as the depth capability is close, I will be happy. I am much more interested in the ability to walk by the junk and not have to dig it. Yes, I am lazy. Also, I would prefer to be one of the first to be able to hunt the trashy areas now.

I guess this is why am quite excited about the new designs.

Reg

[Wirechief]

Hi Reg, I get the idea that there is still plenty of shallow nuggets to be had if we could just get rid of the problem of the PI's responding to trash. Some have left me with the idea that shallow gold that is detectable is getting harder to find in the U.S. anyway. I remember as a teenager exploring old mines South of Tucson, it was pretty trashy around them. I hope there is still good gold to be found in a place like Arizona. I don't know when I will be able to come back to use a detector to find gold. I am looking forward to the test results on these newest designs myself. Ok Reg thanks for the post and God Bless ya.

John Tomlinson,CET

John's Detectors

Blackwell,Tx.

Best Little Detector Shop in Texas!

[fredm]

What you say is true, Reg...vlf/motion/discrimination was a huge advance. But as with every advance we lost a bit...remember Reverse Discrimination...that was the only 99% reliable discriminator I ever used... other than my ears; tone, width-of-signal, etc gave the careful operator tons of info...would I go back to my first Garret Deepseeker vlf/tr no, no, no...I am too lazy anymore. And that is why I am eager to see these new PI's work as spec'd.....

Fred

[Wirechief]

Hi Fred, does the lazy part come with age?

John Tomlinson,CET

John's Detectors

[claim jumper]

[bakergeol1]

Well it certainly would be nice to be able to use a detector that costs several thousands dollars for purposes other than only gold beeping.

What interests me is the old problem all VLFs have with good targets with depth. In other words the deeper one goes the more ground mineralization your VLF reads and good targets read toward the iron end with depth. For example, MXT users at Ganes Creek commonly dig a little to get the coil closer to the target. If the VDI numbers come up it is viewed as non ferrous. It would be interesting to see how much more improvement PIs have for metal ID over conventional VLFs . I can already see this working with the GS5 .

Should be an interesting year.

George

[fredm]

Age no doubt has something to do with it, so does weighing a bit more than the 180 I started adult life with...but mostly it is because the more technology does for me the less I am willing to do myself...it is a lot like cars, I would not drive a standard shift car in San Diego now that I have driven an automatic for the last 10 years...detectors are the same, automatic is easier even if it costs a bit of performance!!!

Fred

George, how about some pictures of your GS5 goodies....????

pretty please...

[Chuck T.]

Hi George,

I'm also looking for a PI machine with a valid discriminator, I have a GP Extreme now.

I've tried looking into the GS5 but not much out there on user feedback and am real skeptical about dealer & manufacturer claims.

Would sure like to hear what your take is on the GS5, how does it's depth and sensitivity compare to Minelab's GP detectors ?

chuck T.

Boise, Id.

[bakergeol1]

Hi Fred - How are you doing? I am at a base camp working in the field and will be here for quite some time.

Chuck- I just sent a PM to you.

My thoughts on a discriminating PI - Well it depends on your priorities. I can see why Minelab's priority was strictly for depth with the bulk of the users in OZ and AZ and not with iron ID. However, there are quite a few of us who do work Ganes creek type environments were iron ID is the priority(hence my GS5 useage).

However discriminating PIs are not just for heavy trash sites. I remember one post from one guy in AZ(?) who spent three days digging out a large signal only to find out it was ferrous. I remember thinking just one swipe of my GS5 could tell if you were dealing with a very large sized piece of iron/steel or a very large non ferrous object.

Now I just need to spend less time working and more time beeping.

George

[Reg]

Hi George,

I am glad you are happy with your GS 5. Even though it doesn't match the ML's for depth, it does have its advantages and the iron ID is one of them. The GS 5 also has a better ground balance system and better noise rejection also, which is what they found very beneficial in OZ.

There are enough subtle differences between the GS 5 and the ML that moving from one to the other can cause problems. We get all too comfortable with how a particular detector works and sounds and anything different doesn't seem to sound or work right. One just has to realize there is an adjustment period.

The key to the GS 5 or any detector for that matter is to take advantages of the detector's enhanced features.

Reg

[AZNuggetBob]

Hi Fred - How are you doing? I am at a base camp working in the field and will be here for quite some time.

Chuck- I just sent a PM to you.

My thoughts on a discriminating PI - Well it depends on your priorities. I can see why Minelab's priority was strictly for depth with the bulk of the users in OZ and AZ and not with iron ID. However, there are quite a few of us who do work Ganes creek type environments were iron ID is the priority(hence my GS5 useage).

However discriminating PIs are not just for heavy trash sites. I remember one post from one guy in AZ(?) who spent three days digging out a large signal only to find out it was ferrous. I remember thinking just one swipe of my GS5 could tell if you were dealing with a very large sized piece of iron/steel or a very large non ferrous object.

Now I just need to spend less time working and more time beeping.

George

Hi George, Are you saying that your GS5 will descrminate a aluminum soda can at three feet?.

Because I believe that was the post you were refering to.?

Am I correct ?

AzNuggetBob

[fredm]

I am not speaking for George but I think he is saying he can identify ferrous or nonferrous with his GS5...he probably can discern the relative size also...remember he has some add-ons which process the signal differently for him and he has really worked hard to master the GS5...I occasionally wish I had worked more to master the thing but I really prefer my 3500....it's that laziness and comfort thing....

Fred

[AZNuggetBob]

Hi Fred The only recent post I recall like that, was Rob digging a crater on a soda can with his Minelab.

Ive been there done that AznuggetBob

[bakergeol1]

Hi George,

I am glad you are happy with your GS 5. Even though it doesn't match the ML's for depth, it does have its advantages and the iron ID is one of them. The GS 5 also has a better ground balance system and better noise rejection also, which is what they found very beneficial in OZ.

There are enough subtle differences between the GS 5 and the ML that moving from one to the other can cause problems. We get all too comfortable with how a particular detector works and sounds and anything different doesn't seem to sound or work right. One just has to realize there is an adjustment period.

The key to the GS 5 or any detector for that matter is to take advantages of the detector's enhanced features.

Reg

Hi George, Are you saying that your GS5 will descrminate a aluminum soda can at three feet?.

Because I believe that was the post you were refering to.?

Am I correct ?

AzNuggetBob

Hi Bob

The GS5 has really iron ID not discrimination. It also has been a long time since I tested the exact depth for an AL can. But yes you are correct in your basic point- I can easily tell the difference between an Aluminum soda can and a steel/iron can of the same size (AL can- low tone- iron high tone at the correct GB setting).

George

[claim jumper]

[Reg]

Hi Aznuggetbob,

I went back through the previous posts and I think I found the post that Bakergeol1 was referring to when he mentioned a piece of iron was found at a 3 ft depth.

There is what Rob posted in Dec under the thread Robs Hole.

---------------------------

"AzNuggetBob - It was a piece of a iron rubbish, but kind of looked like a Cat Tooth from a backhoe or trackhoe. It was in an old push that was recently pushed again. It was at least 3 foot, maybe close to 4 foot down. Several rocks were laying on top of it and required a Quad and Wench to remove them. I didn't completely dig the target out, but dug around it to see what it was. You know the area well, it was below the "Varnished Wall" where I seen you many years ago when you first got the SD2100. Pretty much the heart of the main run.

Talk with you later,

Rob Allison"

-------------------

As for the GS 5, it does a good job of telling you if it is an iron object or not, but can't distinguish between an aluminum can and a piece of gold. Actually, the GS 5 works well on most iron objects but will miss on some of the small thin pieces of rusty cans.

Both iron objects and large gold will generate a low tone but there is a distinct difference in the tones. Iron will generate a double blip or stutter type signal while a large piece of gold will produce a nice smooth low tone. So, one can tell the difference between the two

At least, It think I got it right? I have an older version of detector that I modified to respond much like the GS 5 and have used Jim French's detector, so I am familiar with the unit.

I hope this helps clear up any ambiguity.

Reg

[bakergeol1]

Hi Aznuggetbob,

I went back through the previous posts and I think I found the post that Bakergeol1 was referring to when he mentioned a piece of iron was found at a 3 ft depth.

There is what Rob posted in Dec under the thread Robs Hole.

---------------------------

"AzNuggetBob - It was a piece of a iron rubbish, but kind of looked like a Cat Tooth from a backhoe or trackhoe. It was in an old push that was recently pushed again. It was at least 3 foot, maybe close to 4 foot down. Several rocks were laying on top of it and required a Quad and Wench to remove them. I didn't completely dig the target out, but dug around it to see what it was. You know the area well, it was below the "Varnished Wall" where I seen you many years ago when you first got the SD2100. Pretty much the heart of the main run.

Talk with you later,

Rob Allison"

-------------------

As for the GS 5, it does a good job of telling you if it is an iron object or not, but can't distinguish between an aluminum can and a piece of gold. Actually, the GS 5 works well on most iron objects but will miss on some of the small thin pieces of rusty cans.

Both iron objects and large gold will generate a low tone but there is a distinct difference in the tones. Iron will generate a double blip or stutter type signal while a large piece of gold will produce a nice smooth low tone. So, one can tell the difference between the two

At least, It think I got it right? I have an older version of detector that I modified to respond much like the GS 5 and have used Jim French's detector, so I am familiar with the unit.

I hope this helps clear up any ambiguity.

Reg

Actually the thread I was referring to was not that example. I don't know if it was here or on Bill's forum. A guy posted everyday for several days trying to break thru some rock with a large signal. I believe after several days of hard work he finally broke thru.

Reg- I am afraid we are confusing folks here. You are correct for the original setting beyond the 12:00 position that "Both iron objects and large gold will generate a low tone but there is a distinct difference in the tones." But NO we are talking different settings. You have to understand at the 10:00 position large gold(actually all large non ferrous) will produce low tone whereas ALL iron/steel will produce a HIGH tone. So we are talking about different settings. An AL can will produce a low tone but a iron can will produce a HIGH tone- no double blips as we are below the 12:00 postion. Also tone strength tells a lot.

As I run a mag with my GS5- I am only confused with small deep, flat (below 6") heat treated steel such as recent bottlecaps or thin flat fishhooks at the beach.

There is more but time to go.

George

[AZNuggetBob]

Well now I'm confused? It may be that Rob told me in person and I'm confusing it with a post. But it was an aluminum soda can cut into two pieces at about three feet deep. I remember he said it was iffy and rather than leave it he dug it. ( When in doubt Dig it) I always say. Anyway Simple question simple answer please. Will your GS5 differentiate without any doubt between a large gold nugget and an aluminum can? Thanks AzNuggetBob

[nuggethunting]

Hello Guys,

The last big deep target I had was on one of the 24K Gold Hunter Club claims. The target was just a faint whisper when I originally started to dig on it. After a good hour we dug down a good 3 1/2 foot to find a iron piece of rubbish. Not sure if it was a Cat Tooth or some type of pipe. We never dug the target completely up.

The problem with targets at that depth, is the fact there are no discriminators that will work to that type of depth. I was getting a good "Blanking-Out" discrimination signal when I was within 6-8 inches of the target. However, I had to dig down a good 2+ foot before I could say it was trash.

I'm telling you right now, there is no detector on the market today that would have hit that target at that depth and discriminated it out at the surface!

Pulse Induction (PI) detectors love deep iron rubbish ...

AzNuggetBob - I believe the torn can was a different target. However, it was also at depth and wouldn't discriminate out. We need to get out there and hit some of those old patches we've talked about.

Talk with you all soon,

Rob Allison

[prospectinginoz]

"I'm telling you right now, there is no detector on the market today that would have hit that target at that depth and discriminated it out at the surface! "

The above statement is true at present but will it be in the future? I suspect not!

Doug

[AZNuggetBob]

I'm waitin Doug Always lookin for a better beeper.

AzNuggetBob

[Reg]

Hi Bob,

I must have not made myself clear when I said I didn't believe the GS 5 could tell the difference between an aluminum soda can and a nugget.

Here is what I said earlier in the thread about the GS 5. "...As for the GS 5, it does a good job of telling you if it is an iron object or not, but can't distinguish between an aluminum can and a piece of gold..."

As far as I know, a person can't distinguish between different types of non ferrous metals when using the GS 5. As such, it would not distinguish between an aluminum can and a piece of iron or a tin can. It does have the ability to distinguish most iron objects from non ferrous objects at various depths, but I have not tried burying a piece of iron 3 feet to see what happens.

Maybe George has run into something like this.

Reg

[bakergeol1]

Hi Bob,

I must have not made myself clear when I said I didn't believe the GS 5 could tell the difference between an aluminum soda can and a nugget.

Here is what I said earlier in the thread about the GS 5. "...As for the GS 5, it does a good job of telling you if it is an iron object or not, but can't distinguish between an aluminum can and a piece of gold..."

As far as I know, a person can't distinguish between different types of non ferrous metals when using the GS 5. As such, it would not distinguish between an aluminum can and a piece of iron or a tin can. It does have the ability to distinguish most iron objects from non ferrous objects at various depths, but I have not tried burying a piece of iron 3 feet to see what happens.

Maybe George has run into something like this.

Reg

What Reg has said above about AL and gold (and also lead is correct). The day that an individual invents a beeper that can tell the difference between AL and gold- he will retire with millions. Distinguishing various types of non ferrous metals with the GS5?- well I won't go into that here as we are on a gold nugget forum. The subject becomes interesting when you use ellip coils with variable Pulse Delays and GB settings. For gold beeping just a ferrous/non ferrous determination is enough.

The confusion generated between Reg and myself on this thread is because we are using two different methods and settings to ID iron with the GS5. Identifying a steel can at 3 feet? Well I know my mag would not detect it as about 24" is it's limit for a crushed can. The answer would be simply can the GS5 detect the steel can at this depth- I too have not tried burying one at this depth? Again it is not discriminating out the can but just IDing it as iron. The GS5 also just loves iron in the non iron settings. However with a mag and the GS5 I just don't dig deep iron objects to find their depth.(The GS5 is actually better at deep iron objects than the mag).

So if the steel can can be detected with the GS5 at the GB 10:00 position ( 1:00 position for confirmation only if the signal is not broad based ) at 3 feet -YES. If the can cannot be detected at 3 feet with the above settings- NO.

George

[AZNuggetBob]

Hi George and Reg, George I heard you had some mods in your GS5 but I could not believe you could distinguish aluminum from gold or lead for that matter. Ive heard of people having some success with notch descriminators but not on targets as large as a soda can. I try to stay optimistic?? I don't encounter aluminum very often hunting gold nuggets but considering how many years Ive been hunting you can imagine what my spent bullet collection looks like. I'm waiting for the price of lead to go up. Thanks for the info on the GS5 AzNuggetBob

[nuggethunting]

Hello Doug,

That is why I stated, "right now" about the Minelab's. However, I know the GPX-4000 will not be the best detector for me forever. The question is, "Will it be Minelab that makes the next best detector or another manufacture?" In my opinion Minelab has had the best gold hunting detectors for the last 8-10 years.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Pulse Devil in action, but I'm not getting myself to hyped up. I've heard all the rumors and hype about all these great detectors coming out, but have yet to see them ....

For what I do out in the Southwestern US the GoldQuest, Gold Scan or Garrett Infinium can't even keep up. What about this great "Titan" detector we were all promised many years ago?

Not knocking any other detector, but I've heard all the rumors and hype, I just want to "SEE" something that will impress me. The last time I was really impress is when the SD2000 hit US soil, then when the SD2100 came out, then again when the GP Extreme was released.

Talk to you soon,

Rob Allison