A lot of Overclaimers at Rich Hill

[nuggethunting]

Hello All,

I recently was informed that several groups are going around Rich Hill and claiming over exsisting claims. I know one of my friend's claims on Weaver Mountain was just recently filed over by a couple of guys. Sounds like the BLM or County don't want to get too involved and suggested my friend take the issue in front of a Court.

Go figure ....

Anyone else hear anything like this around Rich Hill or other surrounding areas?

Take care,

Rob Allison

[AZ4AU]

Hello Rob,

I know of a place that has 3 deep and BLM tells me they let the filer know that there is a valid claim there already when paying their fee's .

Yeah right ! $$$$$$$$$$$

[nuggethunting]

Hey Mike,

I can't understand why the BLM allows it to happen, beyond putting more money in the BLM's pocket. I just received an email from a guy that has several claims at Rich Hill and stated he just recently got claimed over cause someone mentioned there was a mistake in his paperwork, even though the claim has been there for years and he has paid on it.

Rob Allison

[Sean.C]

This seems to happen in all the popular area's. I've heard of several instances of this happening up near the Klamath. The sad thing is that it seems you can only protect your rights if you can afford the lengthy judicial process.

[FrogMick]

The BLM is not the miners or prospectors friend. That is not our public land it is the federal government's land and the Feds do not want us on it except in controlled little areas doing only what they want us to do. That is the Fed's way of thinking all the way to the way to the very top. That has become more and more obvious to me as time has gone on over the last 50 years or so, I'm 64 now.

The Feds don't like the current mining law and it will probably change in the not to distant future to cater even more to big foreign mining interest, they already control 65% of metal ore mining in the USA. Read the article

I guessing that dollar wise small mining to the Feds is more trouble than it's worth compared to big mining that can really fill the Fed's coffers at the highest levels. Making jobs that bring in lots more revenue at all levels too. The Feds are busy building a global economy and sadly small mining is part of the old independent minded America they are moving away from. Times are changing and our America is fading into the past. I can remember my grandfather saying that and years later my father saying that and now I'm saying it.

[Allen in MT]

It has been going on up here in MT for several years. BLM is just interested in the funds and will not do a refund.

It is perfectly legal for someone to file over a claim. They just can't work it and are in hopes that you will forget to file your papers on time, which if the case then the claim becomes theres. Yes there standard story is if you have a problem then take the guy to court. It is not BLM's responsibility to see if a claim already exists, it is yours.

Allen in MT

[LuckyLundy]

Yep, seen this happen all the time. If you take it to court, the judge will shout down the claim to no mining until ruled upon and your money is gone.

LuckyLundy

[~LARGO~]

Hi all,

As anyone who read my posts regarding a friend of mine, who had a VALID claim, ultimately lost it, the BLM is more than willing to take your money, and sit on their hands.

What it all boils down to is, when there are those who "paper" over others claims, the end result whom ever has the deepest pockets, (lots of money), will prevail, when the challenge on the claim ultimately goes to court.

End of story...

Just read Luckys post...my friends claim was ravaged by the paperhanger, who placed a locked cable across access road, took out THOUSANDS of dollars of gold ore, while the claim ownership was being mitigated.

The Boise County sheriff would do nothing to prevent what was going on, so much for law enforcement in this case...

The highgraders even had the audacity to offer some of the specie for sale at the local jewelry store.

~LARGO~

[chperdue]

Howdy Guys and Ladies.

First off let me say that I don't condone, nor would I ever do this to someone. With that said you have condition that breads this type stuff fostered by the BLM and there failure to "Manage the land" You have guys that go out file claims for land that will never produce gold or minerals in a profitable amounts. They just sit on them some have several claims that just never are intended to be mined, they hold them for years on speculation that some big company will come in and make them millionaires over night Which will most likely will never happen. Many of these claims would make good rec claims for weekend prospectors and rock hounds, Now I know some people are full time Miners that own these claims and work them as intended and do make a good amount of money from them, but for the most part it is like a game to see how many claims they can get and keep every one else off the area just to be cantankerous. I also know that there are lot's of greenies now doing this to stop miners from useing their claims. One of the worst is the Sierra Fund they has over 100 million dollars to spend and got the dedgeing shut down in CA. Now they are funding the over filing to drive miners of their claims. They did that to my cousin in Siskou county CA. So you just fight them or pullout. They have a lot of money to burn and can out last most miners. Then you have just plain old outlaws that do this and stop all activity on the claim then offer to with drawn the claim if you pay them 500 or a 1000 dollars These type need shooting, That is just this old man's rant.

Keep it Swinging

C

[JimGilmore]

Howdy Guys and Ladies.

First off let me say that I don't condone, nor would I ever do this to someone. With that said you have condition that breads this type stuff fostered by the BLM and there failure to "Manage the land" You have guys that go out file claims for land that will never produce gold or minerals in a profitable amounts. They just sit on them some have several claims that just never are intended to be mined, they hold them for years on speculation that some big company will come in and make them millionaires over night Which will most likely will never happen. Many of these claims would make good rec claims for weekend prospectors and rock hounds, Now I know some people are full time Miners that own these claims and work them as intended and do make a good amount of money from them, but for the most part it is like a game to see how many claims they can get and keep every one else off the area just to be cantankerous. I also know that there are lot's of greenies now doing this to stop miners from useing their claims. One of the worst is the Sierra Fund they has over 100 million dollars to spend and got the dedgeing shut down in CA. Now they are funding the over filing to drive miners of their claims. They did that to my cousin in Siskou county CA. So you just fight them or pullout. They have a lot of money to burn and can out last most miners. Then you have just plain old outlaws that do this and stop all activity on the claim then offer to with drawn the claim if you pay them 500 or a 1000 dollars These type need shooting, That is just this old man's rant.

Keep it Swinging

C

The BLM'm job is to maintain the record and recordthe claims as filed. Courts determine the validity of a claim.

Lawyers pratice law. Each group has their own job and they do not do the others job.

Just another example of let the buyer beware. You make a claim it's your responsibility to verify the area is free from claims and file accordingly.

[Reno Chris]

The BLM'm job is to maintain the record and record the claims as filed. Courts determine the validity of a claim.

Lawyers pratice law. Each group has their own job and they do not do the others job.

Totally true. Its not BLM's job to make a legal decision to decide whose claim is vaild. They just accept the money and keep the records.

Chris

[montana]

There are so many loopholes in the mining laws. The way they are setup opens all kinds of doors for the scammers, and just plain old nutcases. EXcept for Alaska there are probably not any placers left in the US that are viable money makers with all the regulations , restrictions, and operating costs. This may change if gold goes over $2,000.00 an ounce, but the BLM and environmentalists will still make any commercial operation a nightmare to undertake. Since getting a patent on any BLm claim has become nearly impossible and the BLM even limits your camping on a claim it's almost pointless to even stake a claim except for recreational purposes. It seems to me that it would be much better if the BLM leased mineral rights for say $500.00 a year for 20 acres. This would eliminate speculation staking and the BLM would make more money. What worked fairly well in 1872 just isn't working out now. Very few can actually make any kind of living on a placer claim and and it is almost totally a recreational type thing now. $500.00 would be reasonable when you consider that we spend thousands on our detecting , dredging , or drywashing equipment, and if you can't find half an ounce of gold a year on a claim, then there isn't enough gold on it to even bother with. I'm totally sick of seeing people use my land to swindle gullible people . I know that many people on the forums see their right to stake claims on federal lands as some kind of sacred right, but this is old fashioned wildwest type mentality. It just isn't working anymore. The problem with pushing for any type of change might result in losing all chances of doing any kind of prospecting if the beaurocrats and environmentalists get their fingers into it. We are probably stuck with things the way they are or lose everything . If you buy or stake a claim you have to realize that at some point someone with deep pockets and a lawyer might just steal it from you unless you have the resources to fight them , or as some have found out, the BLM can invalidate your claim for some vague reason. As we've seen at Greaterville Az, a forest service or BLM manager can start a Vendetta type harrasment of prospectors and I would bet that they aren't eager to be helpful if you have a claim problem in that district.-----Bob

[El Dorado]

Bob,

Just an FYI, in some areas not open to claiming, the BLM does in fact lease claims. I know this for a fact on the South Fork of the American River

[montana]

Steve. It makes a lot more sense than the uncontrolled mess we have now. Maybe we'll see the trend continue. The state of Az and Alaska operate that way on State lands.----Bob

[DolanDave]

I have a good friend who had a very good claim near Auburn, CA. a few years back, and something like that happened to him. Someone filed over his claim at the BLM office, and they told him its a civil matter, and he needs to take it to court. He went to file the paperwork, and start the process, then ends up finding out this guy sold his claim for $40,000 dollars on some internet site. Now he was told he had to go back and refile, and pay more money to refile to go after the new owner of the claim. He ended up not even filing, as it was to much of a headache, and he could not keep taking time off work to do all this running around, and ended up losing a good claim he had, because the BLM allowed this kind of crap to happen. He was told by the BLM employee this guy has had numerous complaints for filing over good claims, and turning around and selling them for a hefty profit, and there is nothing they can do, and all legal matters had to be settled in court. This idiot is probably making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year doing this to people who just want to enjoy the outdoors, and do some recreational prospecting. Seems to me nowadays being a criminal you have more rights, make more money, and you dont have to pay taxes. While the law obiding citizen must pay for their taxes, their healthcare, fight for our right to own a gun, fight for everything in life.....What a great life this is for hard working citizens.

[montana]

Dave. There again it seems that a lease would be like a binding contract that the BLM or FS would have to honor and they would be legally bound to not lease the same property to 2 different parties at once. ----Bob

[Sean.C]

I never understood how someone could lose a claim this way. Worst case scenario, I would think, would be they end up sharing a claim with another person.

I still don't understand why BLM won't make it there business to check . I mean all they have to do is look at the map before they accept the new claim. Keep the money as processing fee's which include checking to see if the new claim is infringing on an existing claim. Don't they check the land status (ie: mineral entry) before accepting a new claim? Whats the difference? Why not do another simple check? The responsibility should be on both the claimant and the managing department.

Removing the claim system would be a travesty in my opinion. Its our public land, and its our cultural tradition, as well as our granted right, to freely prospect and stake a claim to mine valuable minerals. If loopholes are being exploited then the managing authority needs to step it up and serve the interests of the public.

[clay]

The BLM's job is to maintain the record and record the claims as filed. Courts determine the validity of a claim.

Lawyers practice law. Each group has their own job and they do not do the others job.

Just another example of let the buyer beware. You make a claim it's your responsibility to verify the area is free from claims and file accordingly.

Folks need to understand that the BLM just takes your money and files your declaration. If you have an issue with a claim the BLM can't help you.

The issue of claims is handled at the county level, each state has it's own rules as to how to file a claim. Most of the differences between states rules are about the size or type of corner posts etc.

The big Kahuna of claims law is still the 1872 mining law. Get a copy, read it until you understand it.

The whole issue of "overclaiming" is a non starter for me. The mining law makes it clear that to make a claim first you must make a discovery then you must post the corner markers then you must post your notice of discovery. These three things all have to be done before you can file at the recorders office. How any overclaimer can demonstrate that they have accomplished these three things on an already established claim is beyond me. If you find yourself in this situation and your lawyer doesn't attack the obvious deficiency in the overclaimers filing it's time to find a new lawyer.

If you have purchased an already existing claim and you are not sure it will withstand an overclaim just overclaim yourself with some sound maps and a good paper trail. It's cheap insurance and the odds of you suing yourself are a lot less than someone else trying to overclaim you.

Clay

MinerDiggins

[sawmill]

There is no loopholes in the mining laws. You

can not gain any rights by over filing another claim

unless the first claimant consents to your action.

All it takes to stay over 14 days on a claim is a

simple visit to the BLM or FS for a permit,and show

a need for an extended stay.

If your claim is legitimate and legally filed and

all the fees are paid ,no one can gain rights to it.

For someone to over file a claim and sell it is fraud.

They never owned any rights to sell period.

A mining claim is a business not a hobby or recreation

project. In order to retain ownership it has to be

treated like a business.

The Greaterville problem is not because of legitimate

claim owners. It was caused by so called recreational

prospectors running helter skelter damaging surface

resources without benefit of a claim and exceeding the

casual use allowed on open public land.

By the way the BLM has said that the fees we pay every

year exceeds all the other income per acre than other public

land around us by quite a bit. Plus they still get any

income from other surface users too on the same piece of

ground.

I have evicted over filers,in just a matter of hours.

Didn't cost much,and they had to remove their posts too.

The BLM did void their claims,because they were void

from the time they put a location monument on my claims.

[Dutchman]

I have a claim at Rich Hill that was over filed on this year. When I found out about it I sent the people a certified letter asking that they not remove any minerals and to return any that may have already been removed. The guy called me a couple of days later and after discussing realized he made an over filing and said he would respect my rights. It was a very friendly exchange and ended in a good way. No need for any over reaction. People of all types make honest mistakes. I like to think that most people are honest good people and if informed properly they will do the right thing.

[clay]

I have a claim at Rich Hill that was over filed on this year. . .I like to think that most people are honest good people and if informed properly they will do the right thing.

Hi Dutchman, I like your way of thinking. I think most disputes are better settled with courteous discussion. Nobody wins once the lawyers get involved. If you have a valid claim there is no reason to get bent out of shape over a "mistake". In my experience it's better to give others the benefit of the doubt. For those that are worried about being beat out of an valid claim by an "overclaimer" they might want to hold off on hiring a lawyer until they have read Section 7 of the 1872 Mining Act:

"That where an adverse claim shall be filed during the period of publication, it shall be upon oath of the person or persons making the same, and shall show the nature, boundaries, and extent of such adverse claim, and all proceedings, except the publication of notice and making and filing of the affidavit thereof, shall be stayed until the controversy shall have been settled or decided by a court of competent jurisdiction, or the adverse claim waived. It shall be the duty of the adverse claimant, within thirty days after filing his claim, to commence proceedings in a court of competent jurisdiction, to determine the question of the right of possession, and prosecute the same with reasonable diligence to final judgment; and a failure so to do shall be waiver of his adverse claim."

To my knowledge the BLM honors this process. This does not mean that you should not do your "due diligence" in maintaining your right to your claim.

clay

MinerDiggins

[sawmill]

Claydiggins

The reason I involve my Mining Attorney

from the git go is to eliminate any chance

of passive permission. I let him write the

registered letter to the over filer,and explain

why they are in trespass,and invite them to go

elsewhere.

This leaves a very legal document trail and

eliminates any chance of misunderstanding or

he said she said BS . A copy of the letter is

then sent to the BLM and added to my claim files.

The BLM does have to accept and file the letter.

This way the BLM knows that you did not consent

and object to the over filing.

I agree most over filings are just the result

of people being ignorant of the law,or just don't

know what they are doing. But by not contesting

their action can lead to big problems if they are

not just honest people making an honest mistake.

[clay]

Hi Sawmill,

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. You are, of course, right. Perhaps I should further explain my intent in posting the basic law of adverse claim.

I wasn't trying to imply that your attorney shouldn't be informed and involved. I agree it's a good idea to create a paper trail of your acts and intentions. I would even go so far as to include that paper trail, through public filings, at the county recorders office. For myself I am comfortable handling those notices myself, for others their attorney may be the best choice. That is partially what I meant by due diligence.

My caution was more towards those who are inclined to envision the worst case scenario when confronted with a claim in opposition to their own, This is sometimes the response, particularly on Rich Hill/Weaver a lot of history there. Some posting here on this thread have voiced this same response.

I have found, that in most cases, no matter why the claim is "overfiled" either through ignorance or malice, the adverse claimant neglects to file suit in the proper jurisdiction within the mandated 30 days. If the senior claimant's first reaction is to sue the adverse claimant, they have extended the controversy of the adverse claim by their own accord. A poor choice of action, but one often encouraged by the attorney not versed in mining law.

My advice and reference to the Mining Act was to reassure those with less experience than yourself that if their claim has not been challenged by proper suit within 30 days of the adverse claimant's filing they can be assured that particular challenge can be abated by notice alone.

clay

MinerDiggins

[Dutchman]

Hi Dutchman, I like your way of thinking. I think most disputes are better settled with courteous discussion. Nobody wins once the lawyers get involved. If you have a valid claim there is no reason to get bent out of shape over a "mistake". In my experience it's better to give others the benefit of the doubt. For those that are worried about being beat out of an valid claim by an "overclaimer" they might want to hold off on hiring a lawyer until they have read Section 7 of the 1872 Mining Act:

"That where an adverse claim shall be filed during the period of publication, it shall be upon oath of the person or persons making the same, and shall show the nature, boundaries, and extent of such adverse claim, and all proceedings, except the publication of notice and making and filing of the affidavit thereof, shall be stayed until the controversy shall have been settled or decided by a court of competent jurisdiction, or the adverse claim waived. It shall be the duty of the adverse claimant, within thirty days after filing his claim, to commence proceedings in a court of competent jurisdiction, to determine the question of the right of possession, and prosecute the same with reasonable diligence to final judgment; and a failure so to do shall be waiver of his adverse claim."

To my knowledge the BLM honors this process. This does not mean that you should not do your "due diligence" in maintaining your right to your claim.

clay

MinerDiggins

Clay

Cool heads almost always prevail. Fear and anger cause overreacting, which in turn almost always makes things worse. Fear and anger are provocative emotions, and cause others to overreact in turn, thus snowballing the original issue. Attitude is everything in dealing with all types of people.