"Old Hotrock in the Air Test!"

[nuggethunting]

Hello All,

Over the last couple of months I've had a handful of local customers call and state they purchased metal detectors for a shop and now realized the unit they purchased won't perform in the field like they stated. I first would like to all this is about the lowest "metal detecting" trck a dealer can pull on a customer.

I'm not going to name names, but this person is even telling them that the unit they are selling will outshoot the GPX-4500 and the GPX-4500 can't even balance out these hotrocks they are showing. After hearing all these complaints from their own customers, I was real tempted to call the manufacture and let them know how this dealer is advertising units falsing in my opinion.

FYI - Just about any metal detector, even a VLF in some cases can balance out a ironstone in the air. Keep in mind when you have no referrence point (normally the ground mineralization), you can ground balance to that single rock.

Most cases if you balance to the ground, you will occasionally pick up some ironstones and basalts. If you balance to the ironstones or volcanics, typically the ground mineralization will give you noise. If neither the ground or ironstones are too hot, then you can balance them all out.

Over all the years, I've found the GPX-4500 to date to have the best mineral immunity to all rocks and minerals that I've crossed over the last 16 years in the Southwest. The GPX has much more timings and features that allow you to balance to most ground conditions.

Conclusion - Don't allow a dealer to show you a ironstone in the air test and convince you it's the best detector and no other detectors can do the same thing. I can do this with old VLF's, mid line and top end PI's.

Hope you understand my thoughts on this.

Rob Allison

[DOC]

Well we must also remember that many VLF's can balance out hot rocks, however the way they do that is to simply lower the sensitivity of the detector overall. So you may balance the hot rock out just fine with various VLF's, of course you are also decreasing the overall sensitivity to ALL targets, including nuggets.

Minelab was the first to use the Multi-period sensing technology that basically keeps a running average of mineralization in the ground, so it constantly adjusts this average to keep the machine nicely balanced so you do not lose precious sensitivity.

Sounds like this dealer is of the dazzle 'em with bullhockey, school of metal detector sales.

Doc

[montana]

Rob . That's the oldest trick in the book and I've seen variations of it for years. It works especially well on newbies who know nothing about detectors, and in fact, the dealer that sold me my first detector showed me that demo. I had no idea there were hotrocks out there, but he convinced me that this detector would ignore them if I happened to swing over one. Well ,I bought the piece of crap Garret scorpion and soon learned that there wasn't a rock out there that it WOULDN'T beep at. It was the worst of the worst as far as beeping at hotrocks and poor ground handling ability yet his smoke and mirrors demo made it seem like it was totally immune to all mineralization. Luckily it only cost $300.00 at the time so I wasn't out too much and I actually found enough gold to pay for it, but it was a struggle . Nowadays with the internet this kind of thing shouldn't be happening because there is lots of info to refer to before buying a detector, but it may not occur to some folks to do some research first.----Bob

[dutch john]

Gosh Montana... I was going to offer you a great deal on my early serial numbered

Garrett Gold Scorpion. It seems to be by default the earliest serial numbered one now

known by Garrett... As I remember it was either the 23rd or 25th off the line. It is

now on its third coil... The first coil sucked in the cold water while detecting on the

south slope of the Brooks Range. I loaned it to "John" with the admonation to

keep it out of the water, but he did. When I got it back I hung it up on end in the

cabin above the stove and it slowly dripped dry out the searchcoil cable connector...

It seemed to work okay, but Garrett thought I should get another one.

The second coil gave me the fits, like you have posted... so I got the third one... Notice

the Stingers still have the early type cable wires... like a household lamp,

or extension cord... Also, if you tried to use too much power/depth it could not

handle the ground... But we are looking back at early technology... The Scorpion

has been in continuous production for nearly 20 years. Actually it is the last of the

groundhog series that dates back to about 1978...

I wonder if any major manufacturer is still continously making a VLF type longer than

the Scorpion? ... and if anyone reading this thread has a Scorpion... does it have a lower

serial number than either 23 or 25? Back a few years ago Mr. Garrett had a contest

to find out who still had the earliest Garrett Master Hunter BFO... I no longer have

it, but I got a $50 coupon for having a Master Hunter BFO dating back to the 1960's...

[montana]

Jim. I bought mine in Quartzite in either 1988 or 1989. The salesman was Mr. Garrets right hand man and a master BS artist. I'm sure you know him. The Fisher gold bug was also new and this fellow told me that the Scorpion was designed to blow the Goldbug away. I now believe that the Scorpion was designed to sell Batteries as it gobbled them up at an alarming rate and Garret had it's own line of 9 volt batteries. It wasn't until I resold the Scorpion and bought a Goldbug that I realized that detecting didn't have to be a nightmare and could be a pleasant experience. The guy who bought my Scorpion wouldn't even talk to me the next time I saw him. It's all humorous now and looking back I probably was running the Scorpion with way too much gain as most newbies do. Newbies are always sure they are leaving lots of gold behind if they don't have the gain cranked way up. In reality, the opposite is often true as the high gain makes the hotrocks more of a problem and drowns out a good metal target with ground noise. The Scorpion was actually hotter on tiny gold than the original Gold Bug if you could put up with the ground noise.----Bob

[nuggethunting]

Hey Montana,

I really want to say who this is, but figured it was best to not. However, the person I'm sure knows what he is doing. I guess White's allows their dealers to do this. :blush

You're exactly right about the newbies. All of the customers that have called were really GREEN and bought right into the fact that this machine will balance out Hotrocks, but no other units would (from what the dealer told them).

I guess I will have to get one of those units ....

Rob Allison

[Frosty]

Hey, I was one of those newbies and bought my 1st detector after the air display, a Whites Gold Master. It was shortly after that that I got introduced to Rob via this great web site forum then he sucked me into buying a GP3K I've never looked back after the 3K! Oh yea, Rob I got one of those unites I'll sell ya

[montana]

Rob . That Whites dealer must not have watched the Whites GMT video which showed Jimmy Sierra detcting down a hillside with the thing squacking right and left. He said" oh that's just hotrocks" you want to hear those --they mean that there might be gold around. I agree to some degree, if there isn't some ironstone around , I'm a little suspicious of the place. I want to hear as few of them as possible though, they'll definately hide nuggets if they are reacting strongly in the audio. I've seen the hotrock demo done with Garrets , Whites, and yes a Minelab XT1800. You can make it work with any detector if the prospective buyer doesn't realize what the salesman is doing to make it act the way it does. You can't run a detector in the real world the way they set it to make the demo work.----Bob

[whats4supper]

ahhhh, feed into the illusions of many.

Many, less aboveboard joes, selling crap know there is far more money to be made by mining the uniformed, by playing out just how 'easy' it is to wander around the countryside and pick up gold by the bucketfulls, simply by having any old contraption that detects metal.

anyone coming on to this site as a newbie would do well to search the previous posts that discusses reality vs. illusion.

a Metal detector is not a magnet.

the coil has to pass directly over the target.

minerals in the ground where the intended target is, will play those that cannot tune their rig to a point to cancel out such minerals and yet allow the detector to still 'see' or detect the gold.

If the detector is not engineered to filter out minerals, and still see the gold, no amount of tuning will make it capable to do so.

In general, natural gold requires s higher frequency, and little or no discrimination to detect natural gold. PI's are vastly more sensitive for this work than VLFs, but for the most part, PI's are geared towards someone that has some experince with other types of detectors.

Rob and Chris and other honest minelab vendors make the difference in coaching the buyer of a PI in all the nuances and tips, headphones, tuning, and coils, given specific terrain and site conditions.

instead of caving in to any hardsell or tricks, take it easy and think about things. talk about your experineces here so that you can get the best impartial opinion or observation. A great deal is no great deal if you buy something you think will work (according to the sales staff prods), and it turns out not suited yto your ideals, goals, or applications.

Instead of being a target out of ignorance, bring your questions here, and find out the better route before you fork over cash or credit.

Mining the miner. Yeop that sounds like the dealmakers are still after the wallet...

[harveykeefer]

wow, i think i know who you are talking about. he just sold a whites tdi to my brother in law. i tried to talk him out of it but he was concinced this was the way to go, after watching the air test. the bad salesmanship didn't end there though. he offer to take my brother in law out to give him a field lesson and then renigged on the offer. said that he might be able to meet with him someday if my brother in law provides the location.

[nuggethunting]

Hello Harvey and All,

The reason I harp so hard on this subject is because it's the very opposite on how I operate. I would rather a customer tell me they can't afford that metal detector or tell me they will have to wait on the purchase rather than showing them "Smoke Tricks!"

I don't care what metal detector you're selling, but present them in ways they really operate in the real world. I've been selling Minelab for a very long time, but I've never ... ever told a customer it would do something it wouldn't!

Ok, this person is selling the White's TDI, I've let it out of the bag. I think the White's TDI is a great PI. I've used it here in the Southwest and Alaska for some time. I've seen some great features on it, but also some that I didn't care for (like all metal detectors).

However, to tell a customer that the White's TDI can balance out certain ironstones and no other detector, such as the Mienlab PI (including the GPX-4500) can, I have one comment .... "PLEASE!!!!"

Just my ramblings ....

Rob Allison

[nuggethunting]

Hello All,

I've had a few people ask about a certain dealer. I want to make it real clear this is NOT Jim McCullough. Jim is not only a good friend, but he is one of the last guys that would advertise something wrongly. I've watched Jim over the years at the GPAA gold shows and know he is top notch White's dealer. I give props to Jim McCullough!

Take care,

Rob Allison

[AZNuggetBob]

I always liked the old black sand filled box test, great dealer scam. you lay the coil on top let the machine ground balance and shove a nugget through a hole under the black sand and wala. the only problem is does not take into account real world hunting. out were the ground balance is changing from one foot to the next or give you a clue how well it will deal with hot rocks.

I have to say I agree with Montana a 100% The Garret Gold stinger is a relic. It never was much of a threat to any of the other gold machines even at that time. I got one in a package trade and after two weeks of running it out at Rich Hill it was obvious it was nothing more than a battery munchin over wound coin machine in sheep's clothing. Just another feeble attempt by Garret to compete in the gold machine market at that time.The only time I saw it do well was because Id traded it off to a member of the 24kclub #1 and he had found a nitch using it in the scrapes. The stinger operated at an odd frequency and with a small coil he was able to walk right in between the other hunters that were useing more popular machines with very little interference, and not that it had any depth in hot ground it just found the easy ones first while everyone was busy avoiding each other. as I recall it seemed too high strung, hyper like the whites goldmaster and had to be de-tuned in hot ground and lost most of its sensitivity and depth in the trade off. but I guess you could always use one for a lo_ end starter gold machine.

AzNuggetBob

[AZNuggetBob]

ahhhh, feed into the illusions of many.

Many, less aboveboard joes, selling crap know there is far more money to be made by mining the uniformed, by playing out just how 'easy' it is to wander around the countryside and pick up gold by the bucketfulls, simply by having any old contraption that detects metal.

anyone coming on to this site as a newbie would do well to search the previous posts that discusses reality vs. illusion.

a Metal detector is not a magnet.

the coil has to pass directly over the target.

minerals in the ground where the intended target is, will play those that cannot tune their rig to a point to cancel out such minerals and yet allow the detector to still 'see' or detect the gold.

If the detector is not engineered to filter out minerals, and still see the gold, no amount of tuning will make it capable to do so.

In general, natural gold requires s higher frequency, and little or no discrimination to detect natural gold. PI's are vastly more sensitive for this work than VLFs, but for the most part, PI's are geared towards someone that has some experince with other types of detectors.

Rob and Chris and other honest minelab vendors make the difference in coaching the buyer of a PI in all the nuances and tips, headphones, tuning, and coils, given specific terrain and site conditions.

instead of caving in to any hardsell or tricks, take it easy and think about things. talk about your experineces here so that you can get the best impartial opinion or observation. A great deal is no great deal if you buy something you think will work (according to the sales staff prods), and it turns out not suited yto your ideals, goals, or applications.

Instead of being a target out of ignorance, bring your questions here, and find out the better route before you fork over cash or credit.

Mining the miner. Yeop that sounds like the dealmakers are still after the wallet...

by the way 'whats4supper' Your wrong about gold and higher frequencies. Ive found pounds of gold in patches hammered by hi frequency detectors just using mutable or low frequency detectors. But I do agree with you on going to a reputable dealer and with in the field dealer training you'll get a great start. AzNuggetBob

[montana]

AZnuggetBob. The blacksand box is the biggest scam tactic of all. If you see that demo, you know you are being suckered. Moving a nugget back and forth with a layer of blacksand or hotrock inbetween the nugget and the coil never happens in the real world. In the real world the coil is moving and the nugget and hotrock are stationary giving totally different results. If you see the blacksand box don't even consider buying from that guy. It may be a good detector he is demonstrating but he is not a guy you want to deal with. I saw a newbie with a good detector he had bought from a Blacksand box dealer and he had his pickup loaded up with hotrocks that he was going to crush and get the gold out of. Since he was shown that it wouldn't beep at hotrocks, then those rocks he had must therefore be full of gold.----Bob

[whats4supper]

AZ NUGGET BOB:

clarification: while you bring up validity with vlfs, the gold bug was developed due to discrepancies. The gold bug works on a higher frequency than other coin shooter vlf's. I found my first nugget with a whites 4900, a 3 1/2 ouncer in bullhead city. however, it was the only nugget I found with that detector in the bullhead vicinity, while later, search the same area with a GB1, I found another 17 nuggets of variable weight, say between 3dwt and 17 dwt. even comparing these nuggets with the 4900 which I still owned, in mineral soil, the 4900 would not or could not 'see' the gold.

owning other detectors and makes, I have found and detected gold with one that could not be located with another, and vice versa. The reason that people owning different detectors should use those to research areas where they found gold with another make, brand, type, frequency detector. by doing so, not only may you figure out limits or capabilities of the various machines of preference, but one also stands a pretty decent chance of additional enrichment

[Reg]

Rob,

I just got off the phone with the Whites dealer you are stating is using a hot rock "scam" to sell detectors and he tells me he is also a ML dealer and personally he doesn't really care which detector he sells. In fact, he makes more money selling the ML but feels for many people, the lower priced unit is more practical. What he told me is he has this particular hotrock that the 4500 can't eliminate but the TDI will. Yes, he does show that to people, but that is not all that he demonstrates.

The fact is, for 1/3 the cost of the 4500, the TDI is superior when it comes to rejecting hotrocks. It is also superior to rejecting or ignoring external noise. No, the TDI will not detect all nuggets as deep as the 4500 can, but the difference is not that dramatic and certainly not anything like the cost difference.

So, why do insist in stating you are familiar with the TDI, when in fact, you haven't used one enough to know much about it if anything at all, and then constantly comparing the TDI to a detector that costs more than 3 times as much? The truth is, one can operate the TDI as a turn on and go detector that will ignore most hotrocks far better than any other PI, period. One doesn't have to try to find the special mode to accomplish this feat. Better yet, once a person learns the little tricks, the TDI is a superior discriminator that beats a lot of detectors including coin hunting detectors when trying to find old copper and silver coins in iron infested areas. Oh yeah, it will also find gold nuggets in this mode also while ignoring iron. No, it will not detect all sizes of nuggets while ignoring iron, but will find the larger keepers people will love to find.

To fully understand and appreciate all the TDI can do will take some time and I know you haven't done that, so why are you always take potshots at the detector? The fact is, the TDI was never designed to compete with the ML 4500, so why do you insist on telling the world how it can't compete on all aspects with a detector that costs over 3 times as much?

The bottom line is, the guy showing the hotrock feature will show this feature because is important to him and he feels it is important to know. It is not done as a scam and not done so he can sell TDI's only since he can sell MLs also. Since he does sell both detectors and he does sell a lot of mining supplies, I would think he would know what might be important to someone hunting gold.

Oh yeah, keep in mind that you are constantly referring to the fact the ML is superior at ignoring hotrocks when compared to a VLF, so are you not much like pot calling the kettle black?

Reg

[claim jumper]

Reg, I thought you helped develop the TDI. So for sure you would not be bias. Also I thought you stormed off of here saying ADIOS for good. Could of been a different forum, I can't remember, you get upset at so many forums. But welcome back!!!!

[Reg]

Claimjumper,

I stated I saw no need to provide any more technical info to this forum and I have kept my word. Normally, I wouldn't have posted anything but the original post implied the "poor Whites dealer" was trying to scam people. Well, the truth is, the dealer is a multi line dealer that can sell most any Gold hunting detector. They also sell dredges, drywasher, and about every other kind of prospecting equipment used by people who want to find gold. They are probably one of the largest businesses of prospecting equipment in the area. So, I felt the people needed to know a little more about the issue at hand.

Sorry if you feel I violated my position. I will try to refrain as much as possible, but I do feel it necessary at times to set the record straight with more truth on an issue.

Am I biased, yep. Never said I wasn't, but that has nothing to do with the actual truth on the issue of being able to ignore hotrocks. Actually, the test done by the multi line dealer simply verifies what I stated.

So you can relax, I am not back. Keep it honest and I see no need to return. Of course, you can always have me banned and do what you want.

Reg

[nvchris]

Reg,

If the TDI is not "designed" to compete with Minelab it's certainly marketed that way. Have you read there add copy?

From Whites web site:

"Professional-level ground-balancing, pulse induction detection. Unlike any other metal detector on the market today, the TDI is capable of remarkable depth and extreme sensitivity in the worst grounds"

I don't see any thing in there that says "except for detectors costing 3 x more"

I've seen this hot rock/black sand demo done with whatever unit a customer picks it's very effective at closing a sale.

nvchris

[nuggethunting]

Hey Reg,

Let's clarify one thing, I have a White's TDI sitting right here on the floor! The customer spent over 3 months using this detector and didn't have any success. He was promised from the dealer you called field instructions, but the guy dodged out on him! He ended up purchasing a GPX-4500 from me, got the field instructions like promised and now is getting over nuggets and specimens and very happy he made the switch.

Don't get on here and preach about what you think you know. You have no clue what I'm doing, what equipment I have and what I've been testing over the last year. I've done numerous test on the TDI vs. many of the Minelab's and I'm not impressed.

I do agree for 1/3 the price the TDI is a great PI unit. I have never stated that is wasn't, but when people start to compare them to the high end Minelab's, it's like comparing two different units.

You know Reg, over the last couple of years your mind has went bonkers! We spent a lot of time together in the goldfields and I've always respected you (still do), but you've really gone off the deep end the last couple of years. I sure hope notihng is wrong with you in a nice way.

P.S. Just so you all know, I haven't named this dealer and I won't. I'm sure they have read this and that is all I wanted them to do. I just believe it's a false way to advertise detector A against detector B. The old ironstone in the air and black sand box are the biggest tricks in the book (seems like everyone else also agrees!).

Take care,

Rob Allison

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi Guys,

Probably a bad idea but I'll toss in my two cents.

I don't think a contrived demonstration is always a bad thing as long as it is done properly.

I can take a hot rock and set it on the ground. I can ground balance let's say a Gold Bug 2 to the ground next to it. I can then wave the coil over the rock, show a person the response, and then explain to them it is because the detector is tuned to the ground but not the rock. I can show them how a nugget under the rock can't be detected. I can also show them how I can ground balance to some hot rocks, allowing the nugget to be detected, but now the normal ground sounds off constantly.

Now I can show them how my Minelab ignores both the ground and the hot rock and picks up the nugget. It is a simple demonstartion that illustrates what makes PI units great. The same demo works well with the TDI for the same reason.

Let's face it, the quarrel here is the claim the the TDI can ignore rocks that the GPX cannot. Frankly, I'm skeptical of that but then again I've not seen every rock in the world so I can't say it is impossible. I do know that I've got rocks that the TDI cannot tune out that the GPX easily can. As well it should!

I've played around with nuggets buried in a tub of mineralized soil, not to sell anything, but just to learn some things myself. It is easy to prove to yourself that a Gold Bug 2 is one hot sucker on tiny gold, but lacks depth on larger nuggets at depth compared to lower frequency machines like the original Gold Bug. or that the GPX can easily hit stuff a VLF cannot touch. Now you can tell me I should get out in the field and such but when I'm locked up at 20 below and bored out of my skull wanting to play with metal detectors - well, sometimes box of dirt is all I've got to preserve my sanity. So you guys can argue about the TDI and the GPX and rocks all you want but lay off my poor little box of dirt!

Steve Herschbach

[nuggethunting]

Hey Steve,

My biggest beef was how this dealer was presenting the demo. I agree with you, there are probably some rocks the TDI might balance out and other detectors might not. The same with the GPX-4500, I'm sure it's more immune due to the various timings, but with all the hotrocks out there you just never know.

I really don't have a problem with the hotrock test, nor the box test if you're doing it in a manner that shows how the detector works. However, when you're using this single test to say it's the only unit that will ignore mineralization, then I tend to have a problem with that.

Hope everything is well up in Alaska.

Rob Allison

[montana]

Steve. Send that dealer a hotrock that the TDI squacks at ,but the Minelab ignores and see what his story is then. Any demo that doesn't tell the whole story could be construed as misleading and I think that is what Rob was getting at. Most hotrocks are no problem for a PI when they are in the soil matrix at depths of 3 or 4 inches or more and many give no response at 2 inches, but scream at 1/2 inch from the coil. Some defy all reason like a one inch square one that I dug with a gp3000 at 20" deep that sounded like a whopper nugget all the way down as I dug. And no it wasn't a meteorite, just a reddish/brown rock and the only one I dug in the area. Now that was a hotrock! but I doubt that a hotrock prone VLF would have gotten it beyond 6" in that ground so you could say that from that experience the PIs are more prone to hitting on hotrocks than a VLF.----Bob

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi Guys,

I agree - it is all in the intent. If used to illustrate a "big picture" idea, like VLF versus PI, a little demo can be very useful. But if the intent is to deceive that's a whole nother matter. Not knowing the details I'll make no assumptions myself.

Yeah, some of the Moore Creek basalt cobbles are a pain. Prior to the GPX-4000 the Minelabs got soft hits on them. As does the TDI. The GPX ability to ignore those particular rocks makes a big difference at Moore Creek.

Bottom line is I think the GPX-4500 certainly represents the current state of the art. Nobody gets mine until a GPX-5000 comes along. But I also think the TDI is a nice little unit that I enjoy using. Gold can certainly be found with it. Frankly, when you talk about scrape and detect bulldozer situations it is more about being first over the nugget. It is when you hit those hammered sites that the GPX really shines. At least for me.

Steve Herschbach