Minelab Big Three

[Ridge Runner]

Minelab has the three top of the line gold detectors.Now if you had the big three you would say I'm on top of the world.Now think about this.I have 4500 with it's price just under my 4800 and that's nothing the 5000 I have just above the latter.

Now comes along me the buyer why should I buy the 4500 when the 4800 is just 200.00 more.Now wait why should I buy the 4800 when I can dig a little deeper and have the best of best the 5000.

Why don't they lower the price of the 4500 are trash it.O'h we still have 4800 just under the 5000 and we could lower the price of the 4800 to put futher space out between the 5000 to better sale both.

Minelab if you trash the 4500 will you tell me what can you threw it in.

Chuck Anders

[grubstake]

Hey Chuck, maybe they will make a 2250sd a 2200 with mods on it, or that would take the same battery as all the others, . That would be nice, and sell for under $3000.00 Grubstake

[way2cool]

There is always the used Market.

[rexb]

Ridgerunner,

I completely agree, with the price difference between the 4800 and 5000 being around 500 dollars, if you can afford $5000 for the 4800 I think the extra $500 for the GP-5000 would be insignificant. It seems like they should lower prices or phase out one and offer a better mid-level detector. I would like to see a pulse induction detector that is able to compete with the old Gold Bug II as far as sensitivity is concerned, of course it would beat it out the Gold Bug II with better ground balancing and better depth although maybe not feature the same raw depth of the 4500. Possibly it could feature the new "sensitive" setting of the 5000 and sacrifice some of the other settings. Anyway, I would pay for that over a Gold Bug II if it did deliver as far as sensitivity is concerned, a good price on a sensitive PI detector I think would would definitely set it apart and fill a niche that is not being filled right now. A good price might be around $999 to $1400, a little below Whites TDI. If such a detector existed I would bet they would sell more of those than anyone could ever imagine humanly possible within the confines of the United States alone. Maybe they should have kept producing the SD series for Australia since they have more massive nuggets and can deal with the loss in sensitivity, while the above detector would be much better geared to North America by an extremely wide margin. Anyway, my two cents after gratuity and taxes.

[Guest GoldProspectinginOz]

Ridgerunner,

I completely agree, with the price difference between the 4800 and 5000 being around 500 dollars, if you can afford $5000 for the 4800 I think the extra $500 for the GP-5000 would be insignificant. It seems like they should lower prices or phase out one and offer a better mid-level detector. I would like to see a pulse induction detector that is able to compete with the old Gold Bug II as far as sensitivity is concerned, of course it would beat it out the Gold Bug II with better ground balancing and better depth although maybe not feature the same raw depth of the 4500. Possibly it could feature the new "sensitive" setting of the 5000 and sacrifice some of the other settings. Anyway, I would pay for that over a Gold Bug II if it did deliver as far as sensitivity is concerned, a good price on a sensitive PI detector I think would would definitely set it apart and fill a niche that is not being filled right now. A good price might be around $999 to $1400, a little below Whites TDI. If such a detector existed I would bet they would sell more of those than anyone could ever imagine humanly possible within the confines of the United States alone. Maybe they should have kept producing the SD series for Australia since they have more massive nuggets and can deal with the loss in sensitivity, while the above detector would be much better geared to North America by an extremely wide margin. Anyway, my two cents after gratuity and taxes.

Rex I can assure you that some folk are trying very,very hard to do what you ask above as far as bringing a low priced Pi detector to market.

all the best,

doug

http://australianelectronicgoldprospectingforum.com/index.php

[Ridge Runner]

Doug

If I was going to pull a detector off the market and it was the only one in that price range I'd had another to replace it.Just like they did with the 4500 and they may keep it on the market.

I don't see this as good business to open the door for someone else to step in.Look at all the VLF detectors they have in any price range you could ask for.

I don't know why I'm wanting to second guess what Minelab is up to and my phone is not ringing asking what should they do.

Chuck Anders

PS You guys that have SD's and want to sell them you may get more than ever before.

[Guest GoldProspectinginOz]

Doug

If I was going to pull a detector off the market and it was the only one in that price range I'd had another to replace it.Just like they did with the 4500 and they may keep it on the market.

I don't see this as good business to open the door for someone else to step in.Look at all the VLF detectors they have in any price range you could ask for.

I don't know why I'm wanting to second guess what Minelab is up to and my phone is not ringing asking what should they do.

Chuck Anders

PS You guys that have SD's and want to sell them you may get more than ever before.

I doubt that ML will leave this vacuum in the market at least in the longer term, particularly if someone else steps in to fill the void.

doug

[Steve Herschbach]

Rex, it is impossible to make a PI do what a Gold Bug 2 does without losing all the PI benefits. It is inherent in the technology. A PI has a delay between the transmit and receive operations. That delay allows the ground and hot rock signals to dissipate so they will not be detected when the unit switches to receive. The small gold signals also get lost. Any attempt to light up that small gold will light up the ground and the hot rocks. In effect you are saying turn a PI into a Gold Bug 2. No point, there already is a Gold Bug 2, and trying to make a PI into one would get you a machine that acts just like a Gold Bug 2.

Having a "Gold Bug 2 Timing" would be nice though in that you would not need to lug around a GB2. But there are real problems in getting a pulse delay under 10 uS. When the transmit operation ends a very large voltage spike occurs, and some delay is needed to "insulate" the receive operation from the spike. It requires a specialized unit. I believe Eric Foster has mentioned making a PI with an extremely short delay. But incorporating it into existing units may not be possible without changes such that you might as well just get a Gold Bug 2.

Steve Herschbach

[rexb]

Rex, it is impossible to make a PI do what a Gold Bug 2 does without losing all the PI benefits. It is inherent in the technology. A PI has a delay between the transmit and receive operations. That delay allows the ground and hot rock signals to dissipate so they will not be detected when the unit switches to receive. The small gold signals also get lost. Any attempt to light up that small gold will light up the ground and the hot rocks. In effect you are saying turn a PI into a Gold Bug 2. No point, there already is a Gold Bug 2, and trying to make a PI into one would get you a machine that acts just like a Gold Bug 2.

Having a "Gold Bug 2 Timing" would be nice though in that you would not need to lug around a GB2. But there are real problems in getting a pulse delay under 10 uS. When the transmit operation ends a very large voltage spike occurs, and some delay is needed to "insulate" the receive operation from the spike. It requires a specialized unit. I believe Eric Foster has mentioned making a PI with an extremely short delay. But incorporating it into existing units may not be possible without changes such that you might as well just get a Gold Bug 2.

Steve Herschbach

Hi Steve,

No, you're missing my main point, I'm saying get a PI detector out there with the new sensitive setting only, I guess you're right in saying it won't compete with the Gold Bug, wishful thinking on my part I suppose, but maybe they could refine it a bit more for a senstive setting only PI (easier said than done I'm sure). I know PI's are inherently less sensitive and would not have even suggested this if the new sensitive setting was not on the 5000. So, in essence you're telling me the sensitive setting makes the 5000 no more sensitive than previous GPX detectors, it's just a preset that is easier to pull up than the predecessors where you had to manually set it up for finding the smaller nuggets? I would think some of the increased perception of the signals is due to some of the new technology further eliminating ground noise, maybe the actual sensitivity capabilities have already been pushed to the extreme in previous GPX models as you may or may not have hinted at. I bet Minelab dealers could outsell the current GPX5000 offering ten to one if such a detector were on the market. $10,000 dollars in sales to every one $5500 GPX5000 sale, of course real hardcore market research would need to be done to determine actual numbers

It would also be wise to take into account new customers entering the hobby with those numbers due to the new Minelab offering (if such a thing could be gauged reliably), and not just survey current customers. It would generate a new gold rush for the United States customers and for Minelab who also would be making money hand over foot. That is if there is still gold in the ground. It could be like a Sudan experience over here as far as sales, but with the smaller gold and cheaper detector in play on U.S. soil. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts since you know the limitations of latest the current technology better than myself. Maybe it would still be too cost prohibitive to produce at the prices I'm talking about. Anyway, just throwing ideas out there free for the taking if anyone is listening and can actually manage to make a buck off it.

Regards,

[Steve Herschbach]

Hi Rex,

The Sensitive Extra setting on the 5000 is the same as on the 4500. Good for small gold in medium to milder ground. The new Fine Gold timing is designed to hit gold in extremely mineralized ground that the Enhance or Sensitive Smooth timings will miss. But in doing so it is more susceptible to ground or hot rock noise than either of those settings. The timings are presets that adjust for particular ground and target conditions. They vary the mix of pulse widths and pulse delays. Minelab has been expanding the available timings to pull up gold in situations where the previously available timings were insufficient to the task. The applicability varies with the individual hunter and the places they prospect. If a person hunts in limited locations and a GPX 4500 is doing a great job, then there may be no need for a 5000. If on the other hand a person has a 4500 and is contending with conditions where the unit struggles, the 5000 may be the answer. Personally, for what I do, the 5000 is a must have. I used a loaner 4000 at Gold Basin (thanks Doc) and every second I was wishing I had my 5000.

I 100% agree there is a need for a lower priced Minelab, and that a simplified version tuned for the more common smaller gold while ignoring most ground is a good way to good way to go. More of a turn on and go unit. But you will not see a $999 unit from Minelab. $1999 - $2499 is a more likely target.

One thing the Minelab people made clear. They find it painful to "dumb down" detectors. The engineers in particular. The marketing people understand there is a hole in the price range but the engineers, and this company is engineer driven, have a hard time understanding why anyone would want anything less than the most powerful unit they can design.

Steve Herschbach

[AraratGold]

Hi rexb,

The new GPX 4500 and GPX 5000 are capable of finding gold down to 1 grain ( 0.06 gram ) in sensitive extra with small mono coils in ground that the Gold Bug 2 can't handle or struggles in.

I understand the Gold Bug may be better under a limited number of circumstances ( ie chasing tiny gold under a powerline in quiter ground ! )

Got me stumped why anyone would bother to chase anything smaller than 1 grain !

Cheers,

Rick

[Guest GoldProspectinginOz]

Hi Steve,

No, you're missing my main point, I'm saying get a PI detector out there with the new sensitive setting only, I guess you're right in saying it won't compete with the Gold Bug, wishful thinking on my part I suppose, but maybe they could refine it a bit more for a senstive setting only PI (easier said than done I'm sure). I know PI's are inherently less sensitive and would not have even suggested this if the new sensitive setting was not on the 5000. So, in essence you're telling me the sensitive setting makes the 5000 no more sensitive than previous GPX detectors, it's just a preset that is easier to pull up than the predecessors where you had to manually set it up for finding the smaller nuggets? I would think some of the increased perception of the signals is due to some of the new technology further eliminating ground noise, maybe the actual sensitivity capabilities have already been pushed to the extreme in previous GPX models as you may or may not have hinted at. I bet Minelab dealers could outsell the current GPX5000 offering ten to one if such a detector were on the market. $10,000 dollars in sales to every one $5500 GPX5000 sale, of course real hardcore market research would need to be done to determine actual numbers

It would also be wise to take into account new customers entering the hobby with those numbers due to the new Minelab offering (if such a thing could be gauged reliably), and not just survey current customers. It would generate a new gold rush for the United States customers and for Minelab who also would be making money hand over foot. That is if there is still gold in the ground. It could be like a Sudan experience over here as far as sales, but with the smaller gold and cheaper detector in play on U.S. soil. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts since you know the limitations of latest the current technology better than myself. Maybe it would still be too cost prohibitive to produce at the prices I'm talking about. Anyway, just throwing ideas out there free for the taking if anyone is listening and can actually manage to make a buck off it.

Regards,

Rex,sensitivity and depth to very tiny gold in a Pi comparable to the Goldbug will be difficult to achieve but I believe its possible to go very close and still have the detector handle mineralized ground very well.

doug

http://australianelectronicgoldprospectingforum.com/index.php

[DolanDave]

The next Minelab GPX will be both PI, flip a button and VLF like the gold bug, or GMT. Now that would be a great seller.

[rexb]

Hi Rex,

The Sensitive Extra setting on the 5000 is the same as on the 4500. Good for small gold in medium to milder ground. The new Fine Gold timing is designed to hit gold in extremely mineralized ground that the Enhance or Sensitive Smooth timings will miss. But in doing so it is more susceptible to ground or hot rock noise than either of those settings. The timings are presets that adjust for particular ground and target conditions. They vary the mix of pulse widths and pulse delays. Minelab has been expanding the available timings to pull up gold in situations where the previously available timings were insufficient to the task. The applicability varies with the individual hunter and the places they prospect. If a person hunts in limited locations and a GPX 4500 is doing a great job, then there may be no need for a 5000. If on the other hand a person has a 4500 and is contending with conditions where the unit struggles, the 5000 may be the answer. Personally, for what I do, the 5000 is a must have. I used a loaner 4000 at Gold Basin (thanks Doc) and every second I was wishing I had my 5000.

I 100% agree there is a need for a lower priced Minelab, and that a simplified version tuned for the more common smaller gold while ignoring most ground is a good way to good way to go. More of a turn on and go unit. But you will not see a $999 unit from Minelab. $1999 - $2499 is a more likely target.

One thing the Minelab people made clear. They find it painful to "dumb down" detectors. The engineers in particular. The marketing people understand there is a hole in the price range but the engineers, and this company is engineer driven, have a hard time understanding why anyone would want anything less than the most powerful unit they can design.

Steve Herschbach

Steve,

I'm kind of addressing the statement below to Minelab (a company and not a person). So, don't take the tone too personally...

While I can appreciate Minelab's commitment to electronic engineering (that's what sets them apart from the competition) it becomes strictly academic if the choice becomes "can't afford a 4800 so instead buy a used detector". Fact is, from a marketing standpoint, Minelab is missing the boat (as far as new mid-level priced gold detectors). Maybe this is impossible to remedy considering the good used models no longer produced, but it still makes sense to me to offer an affordable alternative that will hit the majority of gold that can be found in the U.S.. There is some discussion here about vlf sensitivity vs PI sensitivity, again that is just academic if when you go out in the field you can't hear a darned thing due to the bad ground with your vlf. A somewhat less expensive sensitive PI that evades the hot ground like a 4800 or 5000 would be a "new animal" and a detector that is in demand, no matter if it can't find a 5 ounce slug at three feet, there aren't many out there at that shallow depth in the US anyway. When it comes to gold detectors Minelab is stuck on marketing a product better geared for Australia in comparison to the United States, point blank, fact. They still make the best detectors out there, another BIG fact, and I don't think they should compromise that, however, I'm thinking about a more streamlined tool for the job at hand, it's like an AK74 chambered in 5.45x39 vs an AK47 chambered in 7.62x39. Anyway, I won't go into the specifics of that analogy, but those who know can draw conclusions and those who don't can look up the specific ammo rounds in question and determine their usefulness in battle (take the Aghan/Russian war accounts). The smaller, cheaper round was more useful, and there was a reason why (it wasn't just because it was smaller or cheaper but that combined with what it would do on impact, that technology coupled with the practicality became the most useful), maybe it's a crude analogy, but I think it still holds a measure of truth and applicability. Anyway, I openly acknowledge that some of these comments will obviously be my opinions to some degree, since everyone has a bias. Mine is obvious, nevertheless, I am not really here to bash Minelab. They are an amazing company, I don't think many other companies I know of are as dedicated to innovation and providing the best detector possible to their customers on a consistent basis. Ok, I'm sure that's more than enough from me.

[rexb]

Rex I can assure you that some folk are trying very,very hard to do what you ask above as far as bringing a low priced Pi detector to market.

all the best,

doug

http://australianelectronicgoldprospectingforum.com/index.php

Well, Doug I wish them the best, despite my having owned a couple new Minelab coin detectors, a used vlf gold detector and a used PI, I still think competition is always a good thing, but as I've said before, and I have to say again, I'll believe it when I see it, at least as far as it being marketed to the masses. I would imagine the financial hurdle is as large as the technological boundaries that must be stretched, developed, redevoloped, or broken through.

Rex

[Guest GoldProspectinginOz]

Well, Doug I wish them the best, despite my having owned a couple new Minelab coin detectors, a used vlf gold detector and a used PI, I still think competition is always a good thing, but as I've said before, and I have to say again, I'll believe it when I see it, at least as far as it being marketed to the masses. I would imagine the financial hurdle is as large as the technological boundaries that must be stretched, developed, redevoloped, or broken through.

Rex

You are quite correct in what you say about the financial hurdles which is why one must be very,very sure from field testing and experienced user feedback that you have detector that is worth putting to market.

all the best,

doug

http://australianelectronicgoldprospectingforum.com/index.php